Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 7

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tetrasect

tetrasect

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viper13 said:
Agree, this whole thing shouldn't have happened. But I was discussing what do we do to get out of this mess now. As I highlighted there are very few options and no treaty or agreement signed with Russia and the west will be worth the paper it is printed on after the Minsk agreements disaster. So it's either get Russia to stop where they are at the moment and give them what they have already claimed as theirs at the moment or push them back to the Russian border but that contains greater risks further down the line again because the Russian government will use it as a way to unite and rally the Russian people to endure hardships while focusing on military developments.
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Why would losing their illegal and aggressive war "unite and rally" the Russian people?

The annexation of Ukraine's territory is what is being used to "unite and rally" the Russian people to push forward and conquer new lands.

So it's the exact opposite.

Losses on the battlefield don't motivate them, but rather they de-motivate them from pursuing further action.
 
tetrasect

tetrasect

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tetrasect said:
Looks like the kind of place where you would find a healthy population of mountain goats.
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Yup. It's been geo-located:

63176889-ukraine-kolochava-7-august-2015-in-the-wild-mountains-of-western-ukraine-has-traditionally-good-shee.jpg
 
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viper13

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Kung Fu Porkchop said:
This is not an option, and you should know it.

Say you give them what they "annexed or claimed" and the war stops. Nothing stops them from regrouping and stocking up on weapons, ammo etc. just to do the exact same thing in a couple of years. Why would they not? They could just keep doing this until they have the entire Ukraine.

They annexed Crimea in 2014. A few years later they "annexed" Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts in 2022. Nothing will stop them from waiting another 8-10 years just to do the same.

The only thing that can hopefully stop what's happening now, is the removal of Putin.
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Yes, which is why in one of my earlier posts I stated that part of this action would necessitate the integration of the rest of Ukraine, Finland and Sweden into NATO. This will then present a united wall to stop further Russian expansion if anybody had the notion to try and do that.
 
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viper13

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tetrasect said:
Why would losing their illegal and aggressive war "unite and rally" the Russian people?

The annexation of Ukraine's territory is what is being used to "unite and rally" the Russian people to push forward and conquer new lands.

So it's the exact opposite.

Losses on the battlefield don't motivate them, but rather they de-motivate them from pursuing further action.
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The Russians have always rallied against the enemy in the West. The entire population was subjected to this rhetoric on a daily basis during the cold war and it would not be any real stretch to see Russia going back to that quite easily. IF the Russians are pushed back to pre-Feb borders then the Russian leadership will use this as "evidence" that the west is planning to invade any day and will destroy Russia. This is the typical MO of the Russian government. Even if there is no further advance beyond the Russian borders the Russian leadership will still spin it in their favor. The Russians aren't really rallying behind the whole Ukraine thing; most f the Russian population simply support Putin completely even if they don't agree with him.
 
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viper13

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tetrasect said:
Looks like the kind of place where you would find a healthy population of mountain goats.
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He doesn't look like he is very comfortable running like that. May have taken a few days to catch his breath again after. :D

What exactly is the point of clips like this? Are they really that effective to recruit new troops?
 
tetrasect

tetrasect

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viper13 said:
The Russians have always rallied against the enemy in the West. The entire population was subjected to this rhetoric on a daily basis during the cold war and it would not be any real stretch to see Russia going back to that quite easily. IF the Russians are pushed back to pre-Feb borders then the Russian leadership will use this as "evidence" that the west is planning to invade any day and will destroy Russia. This is the typical MO of the Russian government. Even if there is no further advance beyond the Russian borders the Russian leadership will still spin it in their favor. The Russians aren't really rallying behind the whole Ukraine thing; most f the Russian population simply support Putin completely even if they don't agree with him.
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Russian propagandists will always twist things, but having lost the war will never motivate people more than having won it.

It makes absolutely zero sense to think that Russia will be "happy" with the newly annexed territories and that giving them up without a fight will somehow stop them from wanting to annex more.

You think giving the school bully your sandwich today is gonna make him so happy that he will leave you alone tomorrow?
 
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viper13

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tetrasect said:
Russian propagandists will always twist things, but having lost the war will never motivate people more than having won it.

It makes absolutely zero sense to think that Russia will be "happy" with the newly annexed territories and that giving them up without a fight will somehow stop them from wanting to annex more.

You think giving the school bully your sandwich today is gonna make him so happy that he will leave you alone tomorrow?
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That's why you shag his mom. :D

But yeah, we do have a bit of a pickle. Russia is claiming Patriots are valid targets and the US will probably state that it may escalate the conflict if it is attacked. Either way, we are starting to look a little screwed since it is starting to look like the exit options are drying up.

Russia apparently have started to move a few nukes around. Hoping it's just for parade purposes but it's never a good sign when they start testing the systems. Let's keep hoping that it's just to inflate Putin's ego and to act as a deterrent.

Personally, I'm hoping for a Christmas cease-fire that is then extended while negotiations take place. Maybe sanity will prevail and Russia will agree to withdraw, except for Crimea with the condition that Ukraine are not admitted to NATO. I'm sure Russia will have no issue helping rebuild as long as the contracts go to Russian construction companies so that the money can be funneled to their billionaires.

I'm off now to go spend the festive season with my family. I hope you all have a peaceful festive season and that we will all come together again next year and face a Christmas miracle with this conflict being over. Thoughts and prayers to all the real victims of this conflict in Ukraine. May sanity prevail and the truth come out on how and why this tragedy happened. So many wasted lives and devastated families.

Try to have a merry Christmas all.
 
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Kaapie

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tetrasect said:
Russian propagandists will always twist things, but having lost the war will never motivate people more than having won it.

It makes absolutely zero sense to think that Russia will be "happy" with the newly annexed territories and that giving them up without a fight will somehow stop them from wanting to annex more.

You think giving the school bully your sandwich today is gonna make him so happy that he will leave you alone tomorrow?
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Keeps the eastern annexed, previously tortured, regions, Ukraine never joins Nato.
Not that difficult to comprehend.

What makes zero sense is this 'Russia will expand to annex all of Ukraine and further. Next 'Russia wants to annex the world' will be appearing on all media.

If Nato kept to international signed treaties, stayed in its lane, Germany & France acted like they agreed to, as guarantors of the Minsk deals etc, we wouldn't be here.
 
Cray

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Kaapie said:
If Nato kept to international signed treaties, stayed in its lane, Germany & France acted like they agreed to, as guarantors of the Minsk deals etc, we wouldn't be here.
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Which treaties did NATO violate?

On the other hand, Russia clearly violated this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

According to the three memoranda,[5] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:

  1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[6]
  2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.
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Russia clearly violated points one and two of the memorandum, yet you are blaming this all on NATO...?
 
Blu82

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Kaapie said:
Keeps the eastern annexed, previously tortured, regions, Ukraine never joins Nato.
Not that difficult to comprehend.

What makes zero sense is this 'Russia will expand to annex all of Ukraine and further. Next 'Russia wants to annex the world' will be appearing on all media.

If Nato kept to international signed treaties, stayed in its lane, Germany & France acted like they agreed to, as guarantors of the Minsk deals etc, we wouldn't be here.
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Citation needed
 
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Major Boredom

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viper13 said:
Let me guess, because I don't support the US/NATO then I must be a Russian troll/supporter. Oh please, that is such a narrow-minded stance to have. So I suppose your opinion is supreme and is the only opinion to have then. That itself is very Russian of you.

I don't support the US because of the atrocities they have committed in the past. I don't support NATO because the US controls the organisation (doesn't matter what nationality the guy at the top is and you know that). I don't believe anything that either side in the conflict says because it is all just BS meant to undermine the morale of the other side's troops. I don't trust the mainstream media from the US mostly because of how they spewed lies before to promote US interests.

I have not been swallowing media statements as fact and blindly trying to defend a side's position. My opinion has changed since the beginning as has many people's. But it is becoming very clear that countries and companies are now starting to ask questions about the reasons behind a lot of the sanctions and restrictions that the US are pushing. Even ASML is questioning what is really behind these actions since they all seem to be to the benefit of US companies. Funny how most of the sanctions and restrictions have funneled business to the US at the expense of the EU.

But I guess that makes me a Russian troll. For having my own opinion.
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This sounds all tooo familiar... Word for word the same as Paulsie

Just another USA hater. Doesnt matter what the opponents of USA do ...

I did create a thread you can go muck about in
 
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The Trutherizer

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Kaapie said:
Keeps the eastern annexed, previously tortured, regions, Ukraine never joins Nato.
Not that difficult to comprehend.

What makes zero sense is this 'Russia will expand to annex all of Ukraine and further. Next 'Russia wants to annex the world' will be appearing on all media.

If Nato kept to international signed treaties, stayed in its lane, Germany & France acted like they agreed to, as guarantors of the Minsk deals etc, we wouldn't be here.
Click to expand...
So you're saying then Crimea wouldn't have been annexed? How about South Ossetia? Abkhazia? Chechnya? Do you for a moment think that Belarus is independent from Russia in anything but name?
The problem is most certainly entirely that Russia fully believed Ukraine was as much under their control as Belarus. Right? Putin doesn't like that the USSR dissolved. And he wants it all back. And I rate that is what you want too.

You're barking up the wrong tree. If the things that you claim matters to you really mattered to you, then you'd be barking up the other one.
 
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