Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 8

Cosmik Debris

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It's simple, if you take the "love of Christ" approach "no matter what" you are moaning about here.... you will love the Russians as much as you do the Ukrainians. Anything less and you are a hypocrite who should not be uttering those words.

So you will love someone who kills your family?
 

Cosmik Debris

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It should be noted how pro-Russia the source is though..... it's hilarious to me that the same people quote AJ in some things and rail against them in others.

But yeah, there are no clean hands here, war is messy and both sides are killing civilians... while blaming the other side.

Evidence for Ukraine levelling Russian cities using rockets please?
 

MiW

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The New York Times has reported that classified military documents "detailing secret American and NATO plans for building up the Ukrainian military ahead of a planned offensive against Russia" have been circulated on Twitter and Telegram.

Source: The New York Times, citing a senior Biden administration official

Details: According to the New York Times, the Pentagon is currently investigating who may have leaked the documents that appeared on social media.

Military analysts told the NYT that the documents appear to have been altered, overstating American estimates of Ukrainian losses and understating estimates of Russian losses. The analysts told the NYT that these modifications could indicate an effort by Moscow to spread disinformation.

Biden officials have been working to get the documents deleted from social media but had not, as of the evening of 6 April, succeeded.

"We are aware of the reports of social media posts and the department is reviewing the matter," said Sabrina Singh, the deputy press secretary at the Pentagon.

The NYT reported that the documents "do not provide specific battle plans, like how, when, and where Ukraine intends to launch its offensive" but "offer a snapshot of time — the American and Ukrainian view, as of March 1, of what Ukrainian troops might need for the campaign".
 

Cosmik Debris

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So are you okay with mass bombing of civilians areas or not?

The Allied bombing campaign has been criticized massively in the years since, especially with regards to Dresden.(and just remember, the Allies included Russia after 1940).

I have been to Dresden and seen the Frauenkirche being reconstructed. The original stones that can be used have been burned black and contrast with the new stones. I have seen the bombed St Nicholai church in Hamburg that has been preserved as a reminder. Inside, the Top Secret order from Bomber Harris is on display stating that the cities of Germany are to be razed to the ground. Then there is Berlin where I have seen the WilhelmsKirche preserved in its bombed state.

The Russians have adopted the same strategy in Ukraine and it is a war crime.
 

Mirai

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It's simple, if you take the "love of Christ" approach "no matter what" you are moaning about here.... you will love the Russians as much as you do the Ukrainians. Anything less and you are a hypocrite who should not be uttering those words.

This is not true. Christian love is about chastising the sinner to change his behaviour and repentence. You have a postmodern idea of Christian love.
Russia is waging an unjust war. They are literally murdering people every day because the Ukrainians they kill are innocent. To support them is to take part in their immoral, sinful activity.

Read this and learn something for a change: https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2022/03/unjust-war-and-false-masculinity.html

Putin and Russia are not some sort of Christian country defending orthodox values. They are grabbing land and murdering people.

This is madness. Failure to meet just war criteria is not a mere technical foible or procedural lapse. An unjust war is among the very greatest of evils. It is mass murder. Yet some people who rightly decry the slaughter of the unborn, fret over potential health hazards of mandatory Covid-19 vaccination, and condemn the economic destruction of lockdowns can barely muster a disapproving shake of the head for the dead, the wounded, and the dispossessed of Ukraine. Again, this is madness. What accounts for it?

We find clues in the articles linked to – specifically, in what Lamont has to say about Putin’s false masculinity, in de Mattei’s critique of the oikophobia of Putin’s Western apologists, and in Waldstein’s remarks about the role of the passions in people’s reaction to the war. These factors are united in the delusion that Putin’s actions somehow reflect manful resistance to Western decadence and apostasy.
 

Mirai

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So you will love someone who kills your family?

It's amazing how footage of a Russian priest exists who refused an Ukrainian soldier a funeral and our friend here will discount things like that. Actual representatives of Russian Orthodox Church are politicisied and secularised in their approach to what should be for them an important sacrament, they are denying that to someone because they consider the worldly more important. Russia is not some sort of Lord of the Rings old time orthodox (with a small o) Byzantine hold out against atheists, protestants, Catholics and Muslims but a land grabbing, mass murdering regime.
 

Mirai

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Russia destroys more civilian houses in Ukraine:
 

rambo919

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This is not true. Christian love is about chastising the sinner to change his behaviour and repentence.
That's mostly a catholic and hardcore calvanist thing actually....

Maybe Eastern Orthodox I dunno.
 

ForceFate

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So are you okay with mass bombing of civilians areas or not?

The Allied bombing campaign has been criticized massively in the years since, especially with regards to Dresden.(and just remember, the Allies included Russia after 1940).
He's ok with it but obviously he isn't going to state this explicitly. He's going to draw this out until you give up.
 

Mirai

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That's mostly a catholic and hardcore calvanist thing actually....

Maybe Eastern Orthodox I dunno.

This is actually in the Bible. Matthew 25:45.

Then shall He answer them, saying, ‘Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me.’

You're supporting some sort of "Jesus fanclub" view of Christianity, where Jesus belief makes you perfect morally, which is false but is the view that so many casual protestants espouse.

But these discussions are for another forum. Suffice to say, you are mistaken. The actual, non-KGB version of the Orthodox Church (Greek or Russian) is similar to Catholic, they just have a few minor changes in their understanding of God.
I'm glad I could demonstrate your mistake on Good Friday. Now please stop supporting Russia's war of aggression.
 

MiW

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Russian technicians could have intentionally damaged Soviet-made MiG-29 fighters that Slovakia had decided to supply to Ukraine.

Source: Euractiv, citing Slovak Defence Minister Jaroslav Naď; European Pravda
Details: The Slovak government recently decided to supply Ukraine with Soviet MiG-29 fighter jets which were in service in the country but which the Slovak army has not used since August 2022.

"They were able to fly, but that doesn’t mean they were also capable of combat. The Ukrainians came to Slovakia a week before their departure, brought spare parts and inspected the planes," Naď explained after the opposition, led by the Smer-SD party of former Prime Minister Robert Fico, strongly criticised the government for giving up the aircraft.

Naď said that in the past, the aircraft had been found to have malfunctions, which the minister suggested could have been intentionally caused by Russian technicians. Until last year, there were Russians present at the Sliač air base in Slovakia, and it was then, according to the country's Defence Ministry, that they could have caused damage to the aircraft.

"Even the police were investigating it, based on our suspicions. There were parts in the engines of the aircraft that Slovak technicians accessed, and then there were parts that only Russian technicians accessed. The defects appeared only in those parts accessed by Russians," Naď said.

While the investigation did not prove intention, the Defence Ministry "felt a loss of confidence in the Russian technicians at Sliač because mistakes kept appearing in places only they could get to," the minister added.

Lieutenant General Ľubomír Svoboda, a former highest-ranking pilot, also suggested that Russians intentionally damaged the jets.

"We took over an engine from them that was supposed to last 350 hours. And in the end, it only flew 70 hours. What can we make of that? Maybe there was poor workmanship, let’s call it that. I don’t know," he said in an interview with Denník N.

The Russian Embassy in Slovakia said Slovakia’s supply of fighter jets to Ukraine had led to "an unpredictable and dangerous escalation of the conflict, for which the initiators of the decisions taken will be held responsible".
 
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Mirai

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It's simple, if you take the "love of Christ" approach "no matter what" you are moaning about here.... you will love the Russians as much as you do the Ukrainians. Anything less and you are a hypocrite who should not be uttering those words.

Not wanting Russia to murder innocent people and commit this grave injustice and sin is actually what one should do in Christian teaching. At the same time defense is justified, unjust offense is never justified.

In carrying water for Lavrov, Putin, Medvedev et al people are spurring Russia on to kill more people. Those people are partaking in Russia's unjust, immoral, evil and sinful activity, in thought but sometimes in deed when ones words are interpreted by effectors as encouragement.
 

Mirai

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So you will love someone who kills your family?

I'd like to add that until recently I had neutral and occasionally somewhat positive (slightly above neutral) feelings about Russia, in as much as they mostly sat quietly and did not go into Iraq or such. Of course this was interspersed with periodic reminders in Chechnya 1 and 2, Georgia and Crimea.

Of course if one paid closer attention to their interference in other countries, their oppression at home and so on, one would have more negative views but given how bad the USSR was one gave Russia a bit of a pass. If a Western country was doing what Russia was doing it would demand a greater chastisement but given it was Russia, they were learning, one thought. Alas, they reverted to their old imperialist ways, the mask has completely come off. And thankfully the West is seeing it too. The accusations of being disgruntled and paranoid have for decades been levelled against people from Central and Eastern Europe when it came to Russia because Russia treats countries close to it differently to distant countries. Russians oppress their neighbours while distant countries get showered with deals, investments, exchange of culture and so on. Russians will praise both Afrikaaners in SA and the black people and so both will think they are nice guys, alas it's all for show. Russians killed Afrikaners in the wars SA fought against them and the Blacks too were used instrumentally. The AKs which flood SA now are used in crime and it's all thanks to Russia's contribution to the world, cheap, deadly weapons, often used for war and crime. Black people who go to Russia should prepare to be judged racially by many Russians there.

This is an old Russian strategy. Divide and conquer. In Paris the most beautiful bridge over the Seine was sponsored by Russia. Russian and French intellectuals and writers would exchange love letters and converse, the Russians actually learning French. Meanwhile Russia oppressed people they conquered. But to the French and others, they were darlings. Russia now sows seeds of discord in America, supporting both extreme right and extreme left. They have been doing the same in Europe too.
 
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rambo919

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He's ok with it but obviously he isn't going to state this explicitly. He's going to draw this out until you give up.
Nah I'm not going to be baited into answering an obviously troll question.

This is actually in the Bible. Matthew 25:45.

Then shall He answer them, saying, ‘Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me.’

You're supporting some sort of "Jesus fanclub" view of Christianity, where Jesus belief makes you perfect morally, which is false but is the view that so many casual protestants espouse.

But these discussions are for another forum. Suffice to say, you are mistaken. The actual, non-KGB version of the Orthodox Church (Greek or Russian) is similar to Catholic, they just have a few minor changes in their understanding of God.
I'm glad I could demonstrate your mistake on Good Friday. Now please stop supporting Russia's war of aggression.
Yeah..... that's quite the context shift you have going there.

Not wanting Russia to murder innocent people and commit this grave injustice and sin is actually what one should do in Christian teaching. At the same time defense is justified, unjust offense is never justified.

In carrying water for Lavrov, Putin, Medvedev et al people are spurring Russia on to kill more people. Those people are partaking in Russia's unjust, immoral, evil and sinful activity, in thought but sometimes in deed when ones words are interpreted by effectors as encouragement.
You seem very much like a single issue voter....
 

Mirai

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Nah I'm not going to be baited into answering an obviously troll question.


Yeah..... that's quite the context shift you have going there.

That's a postmodern, "leftist" take on it. The least of these includes the sinner, in that context. The Russian Orthodox would agree with me here.

You seem very much like a single issue voter....

Yup because it's ok to sometimes be driven by one's "America hate" to be willing to let Russians commit horrible deeds and let them off the hook over it.

Feser has destroyed your whole spiel. If you disagree with Feser you must then claim you are some sort of protestant from one of these happy clappy guitar churches. That's OK, but that's your take on things inspired by your pastor's and your understanding and since you don't even know the Byzantines you are not in this argument rationally.
 
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