Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 8

[rambo919]

How big of an imbecile are you?

All those deaths in Mariupol would not have happened. Kherson and Kyiv would not of been bombed. Prior to the war those places were starting to prosper. They have never and will never belong to Russia.

Of course those particular deaths would not have happened.... that does not mean no deaths would have happened.

 

[rambo919]

Did you notice this part...

View attachment 1492927

Uhm... yes?

 

[ToxicBunny]

For convenience lemme give a quick overview of the rough timeline as I understand it.

• NATO promises Russia as part of it's negotiations with the post-Soviet government it will not expand eastwards.
• Russia joins the world markets.
• Russia realizes the organs of proto world government wishes to abolish Nationhood.
• Due to having constant problems with terrorism and being rebuffed by the west in 2000 with the so called War on Terror Russia starts mistrusting the intentions of the West in general.
• NATO starts expanding eastwards.
• Russia starts withdrawing from world government organizations and becoming more insular.
• Russia starts more strongly nationalistic than before.
• At some point BRICS is formed as an alternative economic alliance.
• Murican politicians personally invest heavily in the Ukrainian political system and essentially convert it to a Murican client state right on the border of Russia.
• Within Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians start splitting on ethnic lines.
• Tensions boil over in 2014 with Russian retaliatory interference in Ukraine providing Russia with a solid pretext for annexation.
• Ukraine in retaliation begins a campaign of ethnically cleansing all Russian influence including banning the use of the Russian language. This is probably the single biggest mistake Ukraine made except for allowing indiscriminate shelling and torture of civilians.
• Russian Ukrainians with Russian support start fighting back.
• In retaliation Ukraine allows units in it's military including the infamous Nazi battalions to constantly shell Russian cities and neighborhoods.
• In retaliation for that Russia keeps stepping in with limited responses forcing Ukraine to sign treaties
• Ukraine renegs on all treaties as ethnic hostilities within it's borders continue
• Russia looses all patience with intimidation tactics and launches a full scale invasion.

This war has been fought in three consecutive phases that sometimes intersected:

1. Geopolitical
2. Diplomatic with skirmishes
3. Full Kinetic Invasion

You cannot separate the third phase from the previous two.

Stopped reading at point 1 about NATO.. If you can't even get basic history right then what hope is there that the rest of your post is vaguely accurate.

**EDIT** I should have read further.. Fsck me what alternative batshyte crazy reality do you live in?

 

[Cray]

Uhm... yes?

So you acknowledge that they where a belligerent in the Civil War, that they where involved from the start and that the reason for their full on invasion (to save the lives of Russian speakers) is BS?

 

[rambo919]

Nope, my point has always been that the deaths in the Ukrainian civil war where the fault of Russia arming and encouraging the rebels.


Take a look at the number of civillian deaths in Ukraine in the three years before the invasion...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293409/civilian-deaths-related-to-russia-ukraine-conflict/




View attachment 1492929


So in the three years prior to the invasion, a total of 78 civillians died. So far 8231 civillians have died as a result of this invasion, the Russians are really doing a great job saving all those people..

I seem to have overstated deaths but here is the rub, the casualties were as high as I thought the deaths were. I forgot people list the wounded along with the dead on these lists collectively.

UN Releases Data on Donbas War Casualties | Promote Ukraine - Media and expert platform for Ukraine and the EU

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights unveiled the data on Donbas war casualties from 14 April 2014 to 30 June 2021. "The total number of casualties related to the conflict in Ukraine is 42,500-44,500 people," the Office said in response to an information inquiry...

www.promoteukraine.org

 

[rambo919]

So you acknowledge that they where a belligerent in the Civil War, that they where involved from the start and that the reason for their full on invasion (to save the lives of Russian speakers) is BS?

Look at my rough timeline. I never claimed they were not a belligerent.

That does not mean they did not act at least nominally to save Russians.... the fact that their interference helped put them in danger in the first place is irrelevant.

If you throw someone into a river, then jump into the river to drag them out... you still jumped into the river to drag them out.

 

[Cray]

For convenience lemme give a quick overview of the rough timeline as I understand it.

• NATO promises Russia as part of it's negotiations with the post-Soviet government it will not expand eastwards.
• Russia joins the world markets.
• Russia realizes the organs of proto world government wishes to abolish Nationhood.
• Due to having constant problems with terrorism and being rebuffed by the west in 2000 with the so called War on Terror Russia starts mistrusting the intentions of the West in general.
• NATO starts expanding eastwards.
• Russia starts withdrawing from world government organizations and becoming more insular.
• Russia starts more strongly nationalistic than before.
• At some point BRICS is formed as an alternative economic alliance.
• Murican politicians personally invest heavily in the Ukrainian political system and essentially convert it to a Murican client state right on the border of Russia.
• Within Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians start splitting on ethnic lines.
• Tensions boil over in 2014 with Russian retaliatory interference in Ukraine providing Russia with a solid pretext for annexation.
• Ukraine in retaliation begins a campaign of ethnically cleansing all Russian influence including banning the use of the Russian language. This is probably the single biggest mistake Ukraine made except for allowing indiscriminate shelling and torture of civilians.
• Russian Ukrainians with Russian support start fighting back.
• In retaliation Ukraine allows units in it's military including the infamous Nazi battalions to constantly shell Russian cities and neighborhoods.
• In retaliation for that Russia keeps stepping in with limited responses forcing Ukraine to sign treaties
• Ukraine renegs on all treaties as ethnic hostilities within it's borders continue
• Russia looses all patience with intimidation tactics and launches a full scale invasion.

This war has been fought in three consecutive phases that sometimes intersected:

1. Geopolitical
2. Diplomatic with skirmishes
3. Full Kinetic Invasion

You cannot separate the third phase from the previous two.

Historical fiction at its finest, Tom Clancy would be proud.

 

[saturnz]

well this is awkward

 

[rambo919]

Historical fiction at its finest, Tom Clancy would be proud.

No need to get salty, it hardly helps your case.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Historical fiction at its finest, Tom Clancy would be proud.

Please.. Tom clancys fiction is at least believable.

 

[rambo919]

Hmmmm

• Demands answers
• Gets answers
• Insults the provider of answers
• Pretends at a later point to not know why no answers are provided when asked for and insults the provider of previous answers for refusing to do so

Yep, the picture of civility and honesty. Good show lads good show.

 

[Cray]

No need to get salty, it hardly helps your case.

Even the Kremlin wouldn't spin a story as outlandish as your list, you really should tone it down a bit..

 

[Paulsie]

It's always the fault of the US isn't it?

Russia annexes Crimea, US to blame.

Russia stokes a civil war and arms the rebels, darn Yankees again

Russia invades Ukraine, bloody meddling Americans.

Wrong.

They're both responsible.

 

[rambo919]

well this is awkward

View attachment 1492951

It's almost as if they have faked crimes being committed before and had no actual evidence to show when the time came....

 

[rambo919]

Even the Kremlin wouldn't spin a story as outlandish as your list, you really should tone it down a bit..

It was toned down...

 

[Mirai]

Read what I said again to spot your mistake.

1 is sometimes true but not always depending on whether the war started before the invasion or not
2 is only true if the invasion ends in complete genocide, no enemy no war

This is very easy. Ukraine is NOT Russia. Russia has no business in Ukraine. Russian speakers in Ukraine are NOT Russians in the same way South African English speakers are not UK subjects and French Canadians are not French.

Russia invaded Crimea, started and funded an illegal war in the Donbas. Last year they invaded the rest of Ukraine. Russia is to blame for ALL of this aggression. Excuses such as 'provocations' don't cut it because Russia was never threatened. Russia is a huge country with nuclear weapons and Ukraine was not a threat. Neither was the West putting nukes or forces in Ukraine. The West has not put any nukes in any of the former Warsaw Pact countries out of unnecessary respect for the smelly footwrap wearing aggressors in Russia.
This will hopefully change soon with nuclear sharing on the way as well. This will all be on Russia. As Russia is not able to live in peace with smaller countries because Russians think like 18th century imperialists. And you seem to be supporting this. Fine if Russia is excused to start wars of aggression, then everyone else is. It's going to be everyone going nuclear and invading everyone else. Because LOGICALLY AND RATIONALLY that is the consequence of this appeasement of Hitlerite Russia of 2022.

 

[buka001]

For convenience lemme give a quick overview of the rough timeline as I understand it.

• NATO promises Russia as part of it's negotiations with the post-Soviet government it will not expand eastwards.
• Russia joins the world markets.
• Russia realizes the organs of proto world government wishes to abolish Nationhood.
• Due to having constant problems with terrorism and being rebuffed by the west in 2000 with the so called War on Terror Russia starts mistrusting the intentions of the West in general.
• NATO starts expanding eastwards.
• Russia starts withdrawing from world government organizations and becoming more insular.
• Russia starts more strongly nationalistic than before.
• At some point BRICS is formed as an alternative economic alliance.
• Murican politicians personally invest heavily in the Ukrainian political system and essentially convert it to a Murican client state right on the border of Russia.
• Within Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians start splitting on ethnic lines.
• Tensions boil over in 2014 with Russian retaliatory interference in Ukraine providing Russia with a solid pretext for annexation.
• Ukraine in retaliation begins a campaign of ethnically cleansing all Russian influence including banning the use of the Russian language. This is probably the single biggest mistake Ukraine made except for allowing indiscriminate shelling and torture of civilians.
• Russian Ukrainians with Russian support start fighting back.
• In retaliation Ukraine allows units in it's military including the infamous Nazi battalions to constantly shell Russian cities and neighborhoods.
• In retaliation for that Russia keeps stepping in with limited responses forcing Ukraine to sign treaties
• Ukraine renegs on all treaties as ethnic hostilities within it's borders continue
• Russia looses all patience with intimidation tactics and launches a full scale invasion.

This war has been fought in three consecutive phases that sometimes intersected:

1. Geopolitical
2. Diplomatic with skirmishes
3. Full Kinetic Invasion

You cannot separate the third phase from the previous two.

Your first point on your list is wrong.

How many times do we have to tell everyone here that Gorbachev himfu##ingself confirmed that there was no such promise. It wasn't even discussed.

 

[Mirai]

Of course those particular deaths would not have happened.... that does not mean no deaths would have happened.

This is some next level BS.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Your first point on your list is wrong.

How many times do we have to tell everyone here that Gorbachev himfu##ingself confirmed that there was no such promise. It wasn't even discussed.

At least for the next 10 years while the vatniks cry about how Russia was hard done by.

 

[rambo919]

This is very easy. Ukraine is NOT Russia. Russia has no business in Ukraine. Russian speakers in Ukraine are NOT Russians in the same way South African English speakers are not UK subjects and French Canadians are not French.

They see things differently in that part of the world.... the kicker being a great many Afrikaners still see the SA English as indistinguishable from the UK English. You are not keeping up with what actual people think it seems.

Russia invaded Crimea, started and funded an illegal war in the Donbas. Last year they invaded the rest of Ukraine. Russia is to blame for ALL of this aggression. Excuses such as 'provocations' don't cut it because Russia was never threatened. Russia is a huge country with nuclear weapons and Ukraine was not a threat. Neither was the West putting nukes or forces in Ukraine. The West has not put any nukes in any of the former Warsaw Pact countries out of unnecessary respect for the smelly footwrap wearing aggressors in Russia.

Nukes are useless unless you can bring them to bear, so far this conflict has not become the kind where they are relevant yet. If you narrow it down to outright kinetic threats then yes those had not materialized yet.... however there are other threats that over the long term are just as deadly such as the strategy of slow strangulation. The West applied the exact same strategy on Apartheid SA and it almost destroyed the country.... so don't even try to pretend it's not powerful. Russia simply went kenetic while it was still strong before what was done to SA could be done to it. That's the thing with these guys, they learn from history.

Also.... you seem to not realize that no one cares what the UN thinks is illegal. The UN is not actually in charge of world government and cannot write international law.... thus there are no international crimes. International law is merely a set of interconnected treaties.... your problem here is because Ukraine did not keep to their side of their treaties with Russia.... that makes this law perfectly legal since Russia was not the first to break with law as it were.

This will hopefully change soon with nuclear sharing on the way as well. This will all be on Russia. As Russia is not able to live in peace with smaller countries because Russians think like 18th century imperialists. And you seem to be supporting this. Fine if Russia is excused to start wars of aggression, then everyone else is. It's going to be everyone going nuclear and invading everyone else. Because LOGICALLY AND RATIONALLY that is the consequence of this appeasement of Hitlerite Russia of 2022.

Unlike you, I am not supporting anything. I am merely seeing what led to this and what it's outcome will inevitably be.

The age of the corrupt and inept UN is over, Russia saw this and took advantage. We are back to where we were during the cold war with the UN not being able to actually achieve a single thing or note. All the soft power the UN had is unraveling and Russia is helping it happen.

No need to get emotional about it.