Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 8

Cray

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The fact that it was not agreed to on paper is irrelevant to the Russians, that is all that matters.
You would have to prove that there was an agreement first of all, on paper or agreed verbally. Do you have any testimony of someone who was in the room at these negotiations to testify to that fact?
 

hexagon

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You would have to prove that there was an agreement first of all, on paper or agreed verbally. Do you have any testimony of someone who was in the room at these negotiations to testify to that fact?
There's an entire trove.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).

The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.
 

rambo919

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You would have to prove that there was an agreement first of all, on paper or agreed verbally. Do you have any testimony of someone who was in the room at these negotiations to testify to that fact?
Enough people believe it happened for me to believe it happened.... I am not even going to try and hunt down the memos and read them all.
 

rambo919

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And you defend them all day long despite them behaving like a bunch of thugs.
I am not defending them, I am just saying it like it is. Just because they are thugs does not make Ukraine innocent.

So if Russia decides to violate it that means everyone else can too? Interesting world you are advocating for...
I am not advocating for anything, this is what has changed that is all there is to it. The only choice is whether to stick your head in the sand or adapt to the new world.
I don't think you know the meaning of ethnic cleansing, people deciding to speak a different language over time is not ethnic cleansing.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic cleansing
Ethnic cleansing is any campaign whether hard of soft with the intention of removing an ethnicity. Forcing people to stop being Russian by coercng them to abandon their culture by way of eradicating their language fits the description.

People preferring a certain language after centuries is entirely normal, it's most certainly not ethnic cleansing. How many Afrikaaners that have now emigrated to Australia/New Zealand do you think will still learn Afrikaans as a first language in 100 years time?
This is not about preference this is about the state attempting to eradicate a language. If these Afrikaners ethnically cleanse themselves that's their business.

Is this the part where I ask for your sources and you clam up because they are all Russian?
No this is where I admit I don't remember exactly and am not going to do the effort to try and find it because I have better things to do. You have have google you can look for yourself if you are actually interested.

I think it will change the rules of dealing with Russia, not one will ever trust a treaty that Russia signs again. And NATO will have even more countries wanting to join because no one trusts Russia to behave like a civilized country.
No it goes both ways, Russia succeeding will signal the possibility to others who in time will act upon it. This is not the isolated incident people want to pretend it is.
 

greg0205

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Enough people believe it happened for me to believe it happened.... I am not even going to try and hunt down the memos and read them all.
Question about this real quick...

What's the critical mass of believers for you to get on-board?

What's the actual number of rubes believing this BS for you to say, "Yup, I'm in!"

Is the number fixed or variable?

I mean, how many flat Earth believers would you need?

How many faked moon landing believers?

How many gay frog believers?

How many 5G Covid believers?

How many of those goobers walking this world make it the real deal for you?
 

Cray

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I am not defending them, I am just saying it like it is. Just because they are thugs does not make Ukraine innocent.
They are innocent of starting this war, whatever else they might be guilty of isn't relevant in a discussion about this war.

I am not advocating for anything, this is what has changed that is all there is to it. The only choice is whether to stick your head in the sand or adapt to the new world.

Ethnic cleansing is any campaign whether hard of soft with the intention of removing an ethnicity. Forcing people to stop being Russian by coercng them to abandon their culture by way of eradicating their language fits the description.
Nope, you are just changing the meaning of words because you like the emotional weight calling it ethnic cleansing, it is most certainly not ethnic cleansing by any accepted definition of the word.

No one was forcing them to stop speaking Russian, they simply adopted Ukraine as a national language. I have friends who have been in Natal for generations, first language German speakers that have been in this country since the 1800's. No one forced them to stop speaking German despite it never being the national language of this country. Yet the still teach their kids to speak German and English, however it they did choose to only speak English, no one in their right mind would call that Ethnic cleansing,.

This is not about preference this is about the state attempting to eradicate a language. If these Afrikaners ethnically cleanse themselves that's their business.
Afrikaans is still an official language of this country though, seems pretty odd for a language that people are supposedly trying to eradicate.


No this is where I admit I don't remember exactly and am not going to do the effort to try and find it because I have better things to do. You have have google you can look for yourself if you are actually interested.
Okay so a slight variation, If you have no time to at least point me in the right direction regarding your assertions then I certainly am not going to invest time in googling for them on the off chance I stumble upon the random website that you are obliquely referring to.
 

ToxicBunny

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The world you seem to support is one where "might makes right". Where the strong can take from the weak and kill them and its all expected. I could not disagree more. The wonderful modern world we live in is built on laws that protect people, their possessions, and their lives from the evil strong that would just take it all cause they can. Individual countries enforce it within boundaries, or don't like Zim did and face the consequences. Internationally there is no enforcement body that stops nations doing it but the UN as a body tries to at least be the moral arbitrator of these things and tells nations when they are crossing lines. Individual nations of course then move in direction for their own defense, peace, and prosperity. Just like NATO is a defensive alliance and similar alliances exist around the world. Russia has it with some of their neighbors too. Ukraine as a sovereign nation has every right to try join a group like Nato and would be stupid not to considering Russia's track record of invading neighbors.

This very succinctly describes pretty much all of the Russian supporters at the end of the day. I'm bigger and stronger than you, therefore you must do what I want.
 

rambo919

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So you admit you support Russia? Politics always has been and always will be messy. The UN is a reflection of this. However when an organization like the UN holds a vote to condemn Russia for this illegal war and the % of countries condemning Russia is that high it makes it clear that Russia is in the wrong, and is a force that is destabilizing world peace. That matters, I will explain why shortly.
Admitting Russia holds superior cards is not the same as supporting it.

So Russia is not evil, and good vs evil does not matter? What the actual .... Have you even read a history book like ever in your life?
snip

Ukraine is not good so it is irrelevant as to whether Russia is evil or not. And Russia being evil does not make Ukraine automatically good anyway. See the false dichotomy? Both are corrupt and both are evil, it's just a question of degree.

You are being religious about this and I am not. I do not subscribe to mythologies of wars being cosmic battles between elemental forces of good and evil, wars are not decided that way anyway making these concepts irrelevant.

I never implied Putin was not very capable. He is certainly more skilled and intelligent than Hitler. I consider him politically to be insanely skilled. I can think of no other leader that can play a bad hand of cards as well as that man. Russia after all has an economy about the size of Canada and look at how much they shape world politics. They should be nowhere near as influential as they currently are. However in terms of levels of evil I would rate them similar. They both are power hungry, and freely use political murders to get forward. They both care little for the lives of their own people and even less for the lives of people who are different to them while at the same time wanting to conquer those people and make them tools to their ambition.
Actually Hitler cared a great deal for his people on the macro scale where you focus on the micro scale, he was just an overly ambitious and in the end delusional. This does not make him good it just means he cared.

Disagree. Zelenski has balls of steel. This war would have ended in 3 days without him. Many commentators have said it. By choosing to stay in Kyiv in those first days knowing it was his life on the line if they got hold of him hardened the defense around the capital. He is an incredible leader. Selfless, focused, and inspirational. He constantly amazes me and other top world leaders have said who and what he is far more eloquently than I ever could.
Yeah I don't feel the need to polish anyone's petard that energetically so agree to disagree... TBH all the weird worship of him makes me uncomfortable.

The world you seem to support is one where "might makes right". Where the strong can take from the weak and kill them and its all expected. I could not disagree more. The wonderful modern world we live in is built on laws that protect people, their possessions, and their lives from the evil strong that would just take it all cause they can. Individual countries enforce it within boundaries, or don't like Zim did and face the consequences. Internationally there is no enforcement body that stops nations doing it but the UN as a body tries to at least be the moral arbitrator of these things and tells nations when they are crossing lines. Individual nations of course then move in direction for their own defense, peace, and prosperity. Just like NATO is a defensive alliance and similar alliances exist around the world. Russia has it with some of their neighbors too. Ukraine as a sovereign nation has every right to try join a group like Nato and would be stupid not to considering Russia's track record of invading neighbors.
It's not a matter of support, it's a matter of lack of support. The world I support is very different from the real world (and has never existed) but it's the real world I live in so I take pains to understand it. I find it more productive to handle the world as it is while working towards what I think it should be..... that includes handling bears as if they are bears instead of pretending they are puppies.
 
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rambo919

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They are innocent of starting this war, whatever else they might be guilty of isn't relevant in a discussion about this war.
Only if you believe the war started with the kinetic phase, which I don't.

Nope, you are just changing the meaning of words because you like the emotional weight calling it ethnic cleansing, it is most certainly not ethnic cleansing by any accepted definition of the word.
No no changing the meaning, if a word as important of that caries emotional weight that weight was added inaccurately so once you strip the weight away you come to the objective (as in emotionless) truth. Emotional terms used in that way are nothing more than propaganda lies.

No one was forcing them to stop speaking Russian, they simply adopted Ukraine as a national language.
It was an actual law limiting the the use.... how the hell was that voluntary?

I have friends who have been in Natal for generations, first language German speakers that have been in this country since the 1800's. No one forced them to stop speaking German despite it never being the national language of this country. Yet the still teach their kids to speak German and English, however it they did choose to only speak English, no one in their right mind would call that Ethnic cleansing,.
The difference between natural assimilation and cleansing is government force being brought to bear progressively forbidding the use.

I take it you have not noticed how angry Afrikaners are about their language being attacked this way....

Afrikaans is still an official language of this country though, seems pretty odd for a language that people are supposedly trying to eradicate.
There is functionally only one language official in SA... English. All others are being cleansed as well as collatoral damage in the ANC's war on Afrikaners.

Okay so a slight variation, If you have no time to at least point me in the right direction regarding your assertions then I certainly am not going to invest time in googling for them on the off chance I stumble upon the random website that you are obliquely referring to.
Use duckduckgo, less biased than google. I can't think why you would have much difficulty. Again, most of what I remember is from interviews over the last few years so can't specifically say without rewatching the lot.
 

buka001

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Admitting Russia holds superior cards is not the same as supporting it.



Ukraine is not good so it is irrelevant as to whether Russia is evil or not. And Russia being evil does not make Ukraine automatically good anyway. See the false dichotomy? Both are corrupt and both are evil, it's just a question of degree.

You are being religious about this and I am not. I do not subscribe to mythologies of wars being cosmic battles between elemental forces of good and evil, wars are not decided that way anyway making these concepts irrelevant.


Actually Hitler cared a great deal for his people on the macro scale where you focus on the micro scale, he was just an overly ambitious and in the end delusional. This does not make him good it just means he cared.


Yeah I don't feel the need to polish anyone's petard that energetically so agree to disagree... TBH all the weird worship of him makes me uncomfortable.


It's not a matter of support, it's a matter of lack of support. The world I support is very different from the real world (and has never existed) but it's the real world I live in so I take pains to understand it. I find it more productive to handle the world as it is while working towards what I think it should be..... that includes handling bears as if they are bears instead of pretending they are puppies.
Hitler cared a great deal for his people?

Which people would that be?
 

Cius

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Admitting Russia holds superior cards is not the same as supporting it. Admitting


Ukraine is not good so it is irrelevant as to whether Russia is evil or not. And Russia being evil does not make Ukraine automatically good anyway. See the false dichotomy? Both are corrupt and both are evil, it's just a question of degree.

You are being religious about this and I am not. I do not subscribe to mythologies of wars being cosmic battles between elemental forces of good and evil, wars are not decided that way anyway making these concepts irrelevant.


Actually Hitler cared a great deal for his people on the macro scale where you focus on the micro scale, he was just an overly ambitious and in the end delusional. This does not make him good it just means he cared.


Yeah I don't feel the need to polish anyone's petard that energetically so agree to disagree... TBH all the weird worship of him makes me uncomfortable.


It's not a matter of support, it's a matter of lack of support. The world I support is very different from the real world (and has never existed) but it's the real world I live in so I take pains to understand it. I find it more productive to handle the world as it is while working towards what I think it should be..... that includes handling bears as if they are bears instead of pretending they are puppies.
So in your mind Ukraine is the same as Russia, as bad as them? And you call yourself objective. Wow, just wow.

How many journalists have been killed by Russia vs Ukraine
How many opposition politicians jailed?
How many mass burial sites?
How many Wars of aggression started by each since Ukraine split?
Which nation gave up nukes in exchange for a guarantee of independence?
Which nation has had multiple elected presidents and a semblance of democracy?
Which nation would actually vote a Jew as head of state?

Ukraine is not perfect, no nation that was behind the Iron curtain that long does not have major issues as a legacy of that level of brutality. Even East Germany still struggles with that legacy decades after being re-united. Poland too. Two steps forwards, 1 step back, but slowly moving forwards. Ukraine was clearly moving away from that towards a free and fair style of life and government. Russia is sprinting in the opposite direction. If you can't see that you are beyond my help and perhaps even the help of professionals.

This map: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi...ElJspvzdfAtlPIaK5Xva544vSuemzCNRoCkoIQAvD_BwE

Shows clearly how prevalent it is for former eastern block countries to retain corruption from the bad old days. But they are all moving orange to yellow as they improve where Russia is still blood red in colour.

PS: I noticed that the one point in my post you failed to respond to was where I categorically proved that good vs evil does matter in war and has swung conflicts in the past. Is that your typical approach. When you are factually proven incorrect you just move on to the next point never admitting you where perhaps mistaken?
 

rambo919

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So in your mind Ukraine is the same as Russia, as bad as them? And you call yourself objective. Wow, just wow.
The necessary level of "bad" has been achieved. They furthermore used to be called the most currupt country in europe and then poked the bear on behalf of it's enemy..... they got what they asked for. The details of how bad they or the bear happen to be is utterly irrelevant.

How many journalists have been killed by Russia vs Ukraine
How many opposition politicians jailed?
How many mass burial sites?
How many Wars of aggression started by each since Ukraine split?
Which nation gave up nukes in exchange for a guarantee of independence?
Which nation has had multiple elected presidents and a semblance of democracy?
Which nation would actually vote a Jew as head of state?

Ukraine is not perfect, no nation that was behind the Iron curtain that long does not have major issues as a legacy of that level of brutality. Even East Germany still struggles with that legacy decades after being re-united. Poland too. Two steps forwards, 1 step back, but slowly moving forwards. Ukraine was clearly moving away from that towards a free and fair style of life and government. Russia is sprinting in the opposite direction. If you can't see that you are beyond my help and perhaps even the help of professionals.

This map: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi...ElJspvzdfAtlPIaK5Xva544vSuemzCNRoCkoIQAvD_BwE

Shows clearly how prevalent it is for former eastern block countries to retain corruption from the bad old days. But they are all moving orange to yellow as they improve where Russia is still blood red in colour.
Eastern Europe was a mess before Communism and it's a mess after, chaos and war is to be expected.

PS: I noticed that the one point in my post you failed to respond to was where I categorically proved that good vs evil does matter in war and has swung conflicts in the past. Is that your typical approach. When you are factually proven incorrect you just move on to the next point never admitting you where perhaps mistaken?
No you proved that the side you identified as good won, not that they won because they are good.

You have also proven that your definition of good seems to be the side that does the least bad. This is not my definition of good.
 

greg0205

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@Cray

To put it differently.... don't be this guy. You have the capacity to find truth without extra help the same as me. If you havent yet you just have not looked.

LOL!

We're in the upside down folks.

You make a claim and it's your job to back it up... Reneging on that and making other folks do your homework for you is *actual* sealioning.

The more you know...
 

rambo919

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LOL!

We're in the upside down folks.

You make a claim and it's your job to back it up... Reneging on that and making other folks do your homework for you is *actual* sealioning.

The more you know...
You seem to not have noticed I only rhetorically ask for sources in specific circumstances where I don't think any actually exists..... I don't actually ask for sources.
 
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