Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 8

ToxicBunny

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Lol now you sound like Cosmik Debris. Only his hand picked 'expert' can comment.

It remains a fact. Ukraine's Constitution was not followed = unlawful. No amount of denial or trying to pass that off as 'just somebody's opinion' changes that fact.

You guys try to use the same trick regarding assurances about NATO expansion. The trick being to just cover your eyes and ears and deny it ever happened.

If this was a fact, there would be a legal judgement to back it up.

You have yet to present anything beyond a few peoples opinion on the matter, and none of them would be classed as subject matter experts in that sphere.

Just to be clear and to provide some nuance to this, if Pierre de Vos claimed something was unconstitutional in South Africa I'd sway towards believing him, way before I'd believe someone like Julius Malema.
 

MunosMachos

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On the necessity to close loopholes in the sanctions against Russia. Browder is worth listening to. Russia hates the guy, because he refused to play ball with them, and then turned around to actively oppose their criminal MO. Instrumental in getting the Magnitsky Act passed. All in all he's on a bit of a crusade against the Kremlin criminal cartel.


A phenomenal precedent. A lot of the heat that has Russia hot and bothered in recent years originates from Browder.
It is a mystery why the Banderite pro_Ukraine white supremacists like to quote this criminal. As if they can discredit themselves even further.
 

buka001

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An oversized weather balloon with a Fong-Kong GoPro camera vs. a 20 metre wide MQ Reaper drone capable of carrying laser guided missiles. Hardly comparable. The one is little bit more threatening than the other.
Capable, but didn't and the Russian's could see that it was unarmed.

The balloons are also capable of carrying weapons and China has tested them to do exactly that -

 

Sensorei

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Do you not understand the concept of international airspace?
My point is the USA most definitely wouldn't be ok if the shoe was on the other foot. It's clear aggression. These international airspace laws are 50 odd years old. The laws chosen back then would have been very different if they had hi tech drones that could attack the coast with pinpoint accuracy within minutes.

It's ridiculous how the mindset here is like kids playing goodies and baddies in the playground. Just because the Russians have clearly made a royal f'kup of Ukraine, now the USA are the good guys. Grow up.
 

ToxicBunny

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My point is the USA most definitely wouldn't be ok if the shoe was on the other foot. It's clear aggression. These international airspace laws are 50 odd years old. The laws chosen back then would have been very different if they had hi tech drones that could attack the coast with pinpoint accuracy within minutes.

It's ridiculous how the mindset here is like kids playing goodies and baddies in the playground. Just because the Russians have clearly made a royal f'kup of Ukraine, now the USA are the good guys. Grow up.

But it gets more complicated by the US presence in Europe and participation in NATO, so its not like America is operating far away from its bases... for Russia to have a plane/drone flying just outside American airspace (except up in Alaska) would have taken a significant amount of effort for them to setup and get in place and could be taken as a sign of aggression, but at the same time I wouldn't expect the American military to try down the plane/drone, they would monitor it damned closely though.
 

Unhappy438

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My point is the USA most definitely wouldn't be ok if the shoe was on the other foot. It's clear aggression. These international airspace laws are 50 odd years old. The laws chosen back then would have been very different if they had hi tech drones that could attack the coast with pinpoint accuracy within minutes.

It's ridiculous how the mindset here is like kids playing goodies and baddies in the playground. Just because the Russians have clearly made a royal f'kup of Ukraine, now the USA are the good guys. Grow up.

China and Russia regularly put ships and planes off the coasts of other countries, stop crying and wake up to the realities of politics.

USA broke no laws with their drone, flying into said drone is however a breach of laws.
 

Blu82

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Are these NATO planes escorting Russian ones because they are flying near NATO airspace? Don't show @Sensorei, its clear aggression and he will have a meltdown.
Most of these intercepts are typically near Alaska or somewhere over Canada. I was just illustrating how long this has been going on.
 

Matata

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So you admit you support Russia? Politics always has been and always will be messy. The UN is a reflection of this. However when an organization like the UN holds a vote to condemn Russia for this illegal war and the % of countries condemning Russia is that high it makes it clear that Russia is in the wrong, and is a force that is destabilizing world peace. That matters, I will explain why shortly.

So Russia is not evil, and good vs evil does not matter? What the actual .... Have you even read a history book like ever in your life?

So you think good vs evil does not matter, how Machiavellian of you. Thing is it does matter, and has always. In WW1 as one example up until the last minute England was out the war and had no part in it. They had no hard alliance with France or Germany or Russia, the main parties of the conflict. Then Germany moved into France through Belgium. They told the Belgians they where just passing through, and not to blow up bridges or railways or there would be reprisals. The Belgian's bravely did it anyways. The Germans in reprisal then lined up entire villages of men, women, and children and shot them all. Not special trained death squads, these where ordinary German conscript units who where in ordinary jobs shortly before. The Germans where actually kind of surprised at the outrage the world expressed at their actions. They could not understand what the world press coined "The rape of Belgium". To them they had warned the Belgians there would be reprisals and then those reprisals happened as warned.

The German people being a harsh people though it was normal to shoot women and children. They where to coin the word "evil" in terms of their culture, and acceptance of that type of thing. What it did though was cause such outrage that England then joined the war on a wave of public outrage at German atrocities and the defensive alliance they had with Belgium. So yes, it matters, always has. England went from public opinion being against joining the war to almost unanimous support very quickly because normal people care about right vs wrong.

WW2 it repeated. Everyone with half a brain knew the Germans where bad, and even before places like the USA got pulled fully into the war their leadership where doing everything in their power to stop the monster that was Hitler from getting stronger by supplying their allies like England to help stop him. Good vs evil matters, as public opinion matters. Saying Russia is stronger is immaterial. Russia is in the wrong, end of story. They keep murdering and conquering people they have no right to rule over. That is evil and has to be stopped by good men. Idiots like you just slow things down. You are what Putin would call a "Useful idiot" as you clearly want the world to stop helping Ukraine and for them to capitulate.

I never implied Putin was not very capable. He is certainly more skilled and intelligent than Hitler. I consider him politically to be insanely skilled. I can think of no other leader that can play a bad hand of cards as well as that man. Russia after all has an economy about the size of Canada and look at how much they shape world politics. They should be nowhere near as influential as they currently are. However in terms of levels of evil I would rate them similar. They both are power hungry, and freely use political murders to get forward. They both care little for the lives of their own people and even less for the lives of people who are different to them while at the same time wanting to conquer those people and make them tools to their ambition.

Disagree. Zelenski has balls of steel. This war would have ended in 3 days without him. Many commentators have said it. By choosing to stay in Kyiv in those first days knowing it was his life on the line if they got hold of him hardened the defense around the capital. He is an incredible leader. Selfless, focused, and inspirational. He constantly amazes me and other top world leaders have said who and what he is far more eloquently than I ever could.

The world you seem to support is one where "might makes right". Where the strong can take from the weak and kill them and its all expected. I could not disagree more. The wonderful modern world we live in is built on laws that protect people, their possessions, and their lives from the evil strong that would just take it all cause they can. Individual countries enforce it within boundaries, or don't like Zim did and face the consequences. Internationally there is no enforcement body that stops nations doing it but the UN as a body tries to at least be the moral arbitrator of these things and tells nations when they are crossing lines. Individual nations of course then move in direction for their own defense, peace, and prosperity. Just like NATO is a defensive alliance and similar alliances exist around the world. Russia has it with some of their neighbors too. Ukraine as a sovereign nation has every right to try join a group like Nato and would be stupid not to considering Russia's track record of invading neighbors.
This is a brilliant post. If MyBB had a post of the day or essay competition I would nominate this as post of the day. Thank you for articulating the post so well and including background information about belgium. Glad I am not the only one who also saw the "might is right" concern which could become problematic if it spills over to the rest of the world. I appreciate reading well thought out and rational posts like these. It makes the forum a better place.
 

Sensorei

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But it gets more complicated by the US presence in Europe and participation in NATO, so its not like America is operating far away from its bases... for Russia to have a plane/drone flying just outside American airspace (except up in Alaska) would have taken a significant amount of effort for them to setup and get in place and could be taken as a sign of aggression, but at the same time I wouldn't expect the American military to try down the plane/drone, they would monitor it damned closely though.
For sure it's complicated. But the bottom line is that having the US military and NATO so close to Russia a nationality security threat to them and they will not tolerate it. The West's interference might look like it's helping Ukraine now with the supplying of weapons and supplies. But it's ultimately going to causing the absolute destruction of Ukraine.

The USA are using Ukraine as a pawn. Russia can not lose this war. They will sacrifice half of their men and destroy the whole of Ukraine before they let NATO set up base in Ukraine. The only way out this for Ukraine is negotiation, and Zelenski and the West have pretty much screwed that up.

Zelenski knows he can't win this war without the USA sending their troops in. But there is zero chance that Biden will do that.
 

Matata

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ToxicBunny

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For sure it's complicated. But the bottom line is that having the US military and NATO so close to Russia a nationality security threat to them and they will not tolerate it. The West's interference might look like it's helping Ukraine now with the supplying of weapons and supplies. But it's ultimately going to causing the absolute destruction of Ukraine.

The USA are using Ukraine as a pawn. Russia can not lose this war. They will sacrifice half of their men and destroy the whole of Ukraine before they let NATO set up base in Ukraine. The only way out this for Ukraine is negotiation, and Zelenski and the West have pretty much screwed that up.

Zelenski knows he can't win this war without the USA sending their troops in. But there is zero chance that Biden will do that.

See I would fundamentally disagree, having Russia on Europes border is a national security threat to Europe and thus NATO exists... NATO is not a threat to Russia.

And there we go with the negotiation bollocks... negotiate with Russia and this scenario will just play out over and over again.
 

Sensorei

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See I would fundamentally disagree, having Russia on Europes border is a national security threat to Europe and thus NATO exists... NATO is not a threat to Russia.

And there we go with the negotiation bollocks... negotiate with Russia and this scenario will just play out over and over again.
Negotiation seems like bollocks on every level, but Ukraine has no other option. Anyone who believes that Russia can lose this without first starting World War 3 is delusional.
 

ToxicBunny

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Negotiation seems like bollocks on every level, but Ukraine has no other option. Anyone who believes that Russia can lose this without first starting World War 3 is delusional.

I actually think Russia probably has no other option, not just Ukraine.
 
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