Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part3

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The Trutherizer

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There's a book available too if you really want to dig deep. Written by Japanese academics curious about his leaked emails and his "political technology"

I wonder if these are the same hackers Pak has such beef with lol
 

NarrowBandFtw

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Are their intelligence assessments biased? That leads to defeat. You obviously have no military experience but talk the talk without ever having walked the walk...
oh god, tell us more about your extensive medic training :laugh::ROFL::laugh::ROFL:

yes intelligence assessments ARE biased, did you somehow miss the multi-year Russia election hoax that the entire US intelligence core claimed was real?!?

it's all kabuki theatre, and you are the gullible fool buying popcorn in the queue expecting something real on stage :rolleyes:
 

NarrowBandFtw

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Ukraine has requested this be thoroughly investigated independently, mute from Russia's side other than to claim it was Ukraine

just like Bucha? :cool:

Russia asked for an independent investigation, the only thing from Ukraine's side was that Russia massacred people ... without a shred of evidence
 

Mirai

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What a load of kuk. The guy says 600 people were arrested in Kyiv in May and then says and then add all the other villages and towns in UKR and the figure is larger than all the soldier casualties. Seriously?

They're just making stuff up.

Woman was expelled from university because she said: "I don't donate to the armed forces because I don't support murder or war". No sh-t. They're in a survival mode and the woman says Ukrainian armed forces are murderers without any evidence. He claims she disappeared and it's no doubt insinuated she was executed but no proof of this is provided.

Then he shows some ugly videos of an Ukrainian whipping a group of Roma women with a dildo and some clips of a man being whipped tied to a lamppost and some images of people tied to lamposts with painted faces with no references. We know that people taking advantage of others have been treated like this by Ukrainians (tied to lamppost) as deterrence but we don't know who these people are. He claims the Roma women have LESS dignity than the children dressed in concentration camp fatigues standing behind electrified fences in the 1940s.

Then he shows some clips from Schindler's List and brings up the Nazi German Operation Harvest Festival original name Aktion Erntefest. He claims Ukrainians celebrate this and insitutes Ukrainians are responsible for this Nazi German orchestrated operation where Jewish prisoners were murdered en masse. The people who carried out these actions were German SS, Volksdeutches (who were people of German ancestry living in Nazi occupied territories) and Hiwis or Trawniki:

Who were the latter:

From Wiki:

Although the majority of Trawniki men or Hiwis came from among the prisoners of war, there were also Volksdeutsche from Eastern Europe among them,[4][5] valued because of their ability to speak Russian, Ukrainian and other languages of the occupied territories. All the officers at the Trawniki camp were Reichsdeutsche (citizens of the German Reich), and most of the squad commanders were Volksdeutsche (people whose language and culture had German origins but who did not hold German citizenship).[5] The conscripted civilians and former Soviet POWs included Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Belarusians, Estonians, Georgians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians, Tatars, and Ukrainians.[6] The Trawnikis took a major part in Operation Reinhard, the Nazi plan to exterminate Jews. They also served at extermination camps and played an important role in the annihilation of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (see the Stroop Report), among others.

We see that while Ukrainian collaborators were some of the Trawniki or Hiwis, we also see that many were prisoners from Belarus (Putin ally) and actual Russians. No idea why Ukrainians are singled out here and it's claimed that their nationalism is responsible.

So we see that this garbage Nico posts is deceptive and not referenced with evidence. Terrible garbage being made by some 'award winning journalist'. Maybe now is the time to review this guy's work because if it's this level of weak sauce and emotional manipulation of Western audiences then the rest must be bad too.

Criminal activities and hate crimes occur all over the world. The video of supposed Roma women being hit with a dildo is just criminal activity and hate crime. To label all Ukrainians as this is just not rational and hate speech as well. We can all find examples of hate crimes from all over the world.

 
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Mirai

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just like Bucha? :cool:

Russia asked for an independent investigation, the only thing from Ukraine's side was that Russia massacred people ... without a shred of evidence

This is not true. Russia asked it to not be investigated by the United Nations.


Moscow has said it would oppose an independent investigation into an alleged massacre at Bucha at the center of claims Russian troops committed atrocities, which might form an International Criminal Court (ICC) case against Vladimir Putin.

UN and ICC are investigating.



But so far there is evidence that the crimes were committed by Russia. They were less likely committed by space aliens, ghosts, NATO or Ukrainian forces.
 

Mirai

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This is never acceptable by anybody for any reason.

I see the faux outrage. Honestly man, your sense of proportion is off. We have actual castration including of 60 Ukrainians in 2014 in a Donetsk hospital and we now have one on video followed by an execution, after things such as Bucha, bombing of Kramatorsk railway terminal, various shopping centres, Mariupol and now killing of POWs from Azovstal, and you bring up some comments some medic made. Again sticks and stones.

It's never acceptable. You say. Is it acceptable to support Russia by opposing Ukraine entry into NATO and EU where they'll become more democratic and less corrupt and there will be more protection for minorities?

If you really worry about these poor Ukrainian people your heart pumps so much custard for, surely you'd want them to join EU and NATO as both bodies require transparency, rule of law and proper law enforcement. Russia certainly is not the role model here. Current Ukraine maybe isn't either. This current Ukraine however wants to be more like her non-Russian influenced allies where law and order has a better track record than in UKR and RUS.

Honestly man. First things, first. First Ukrainians kick the Russians out beyond their border. Than they start the process of joining EU and NATO and other international bodies.
 

Mirai

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Yet you seem to let the fact that Russia is killing and torturing civilians slide because "some Ukrainians have Nazi tattoos"?

He plays an idealist card. If Ukraine is not perfect like some fairy tale country from some Disney book for kids, then it surely is evil and it should not be supported. Because sure as heck everyone else is perfect and has always been in times of war.

And it's so nice to complain that some medic who maybe has seen many Ukrainian casualties goes on a tirade while he's country is being bombed but to be cool while sitting in SA where one is 1000s of kms away from this.
 

Grant

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images (10) (51).jpeg
The drunks should do a good and proper job of it - stop selling to everyone.
 

Mirai

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Gramps has a very "old fashioned" SA view of things and doesn't like it when his raci realism has been called out, so he likes to sneak around and make the odd slimy comment every now and then.

Is he one of these guys who are upset that they were 'deceived' by the Rooi Gevaar 'propaganda'?

I suppose a holiday package to St Petersburg in the 2000s and being upset about American sanctions against SA which helped bring down apartheid can make some people upset.
 

Paulsie

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I also think passions get in the way of common sense - sometimes, people are so passionate about RU winning or UA winning - and want to press their reasons for this belief, that we forget, nobody is winning right now. Least of all RU and UA.

Again, I dont particularly want to get into a debate on this ......... these are just the thoughts that are in my mind.
I completely agree with you. Passions running high.

OK, let's agree on the following (if possible):
- Putin (not Russians) should never have attacked Ukraine (irrespective of whether he was provoked or not)
- let's also agree that Azov is now part of government forces and is there to protect homeland (irrespective of any possible past)
- let's agree that anything coming out of Russia is propaganda
- let's agree that there are rogue units on both sides causing atrocities not relevant to war (soldiers fighting each other)
- let's agree that none of the above has a true reflection on ordinary Russians nor Ukrainians
- and let's finally agree that the most important thing right now is the end of this conflict and safety of the people

Question is - how can this be achieved?

The simple answer might be for Russia to exit Ukraine. But we all know that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Russia will never do that for a number of reasons. 1/ it would lose face. 2/ it would lose any power to negotiate either now or anytime in the future (isame reason other countries are in possession of nuclear weapons - not because they want to bomb others, but because it increases their power to negotiate on global scale).

So the answer to my question is to negotiate with Putin, but nobody is prepared to do that. The EU might be prepared to do that, but they are too under the spell of the US, which has not even taken part in the negotiation of the aid corridor.

I maintain it is in the best interest of the US to prolong this conflict for as long as possible as it weakens Russia position in global markets (attempts at de-dollarization, supply of energy etc).

This is where the incessant "marketing" of everything Russia bad is so dangerous. It distracts people away from the only possible way out - negotiation.
 

Mirai

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George Eliason​


Versions of names: Джордж Элиасон


We know where he loyalties lie.

What is fake observation?​


Fake observation is politically biased international election observation. It is a form of political activity performed by international actors and aimed at advancing interests of politicians and political forces by imitating credible election monitoring during electoral processes. Politically biased election observation ignores common standards and good practice of interntional election observation as defined in relevant basic documents.
 
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tetrasect

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He plays an idealist card. If Ukraine is not perfect like some fairy tale country from some Disney book for kids, then it surely is evil and it should not be supported. Because sure as heck everyone else is perfect and has always been in times of war.

And it's so nice to complain that some medic who maybe has seen many Ukrainian casualties goes on a tirade while he's country is being bombed but to be cool while sitting in SA where one is 1000s of kms away from this.

Yip. It's like saying "I don't agree with murder, but you should know that the victim once stole a bar of chocolate from a corner shop. So neither party is innocent here. Both are equally to blame. I don't take sides."
 

Mirai

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I completely agree with you.

OK, let's agree on the following:
- Putin (not Russians) should never have attacked Ukraine (irrespective of whether he was provoked or not)
- let's also agree that Azov is now part of government forces and is there to protect homeland (irrespectobe of any possible past)
- let's agree that anything coming out of Russia is propaganda
- let's agree that there are rogue units on both sides causing atrocities not relevant to war (soldiers fighting each other)
- let's agree that none of the above has a true reflection on ordinary Russians nor Ukrainians
- and let's finally agree that the most important thing right now is the end of this conflict and safety of the people

Question is - how can this be achieved?

The simple answer might be for Russia to exit Ukraine. But we all know that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Russia will never do that for a number of reasons. 1/ it would lose face.

Russia does not worry about her face. She is currently already losing face. For local consumption she can create a narrative that she achieved her purpose.

2/ it would lose any power to negotiate either now or anytime in the future (isame reason other countries are in possession of nuclear weapons - not because they want to bomb others, but because it increases their power to negotiate on global scale).

Russia retains her nuclear weapons. Russia remains the largest country in the world. Russia retains her deposits of natural resources. Russia can retain her relations with anyone she wishes.

So the answer to my question is to negotiate with Putin, but nobody is prepared to do that. The EU might be prepared to do that, but they are too under the spell of the US, which has not even taken part in the negotiation of the aid corridor.

Putin was not prepared to negotiate. If Putin wanted to negotiate he would make it very clear and he would blame the Ukrainians for not negotiating in a very clear and obvious way. Russia could call a ceasefire and offer a goodwill gesture by withdrawing, at least some kms back.

I maintain it is in the best interest of the US to prolong this conflict for as long as possible as it weakens Russia position in global markets (attempts at de-dollarization, supply of energy etc).

There is no one US interest. There are various camps in the US. Some would want Russia on their side to oppose China. Some fear collapse of the Russia and the chaos which would happen. US in the beginning of this war did not provide heavy weapons support, only after Russian failures and Ukrainian resolve did they decide to aid. Ukraine did this without much aid from the US initially. She had the training they had provided and some weapons and she had aid from her neighbours who allowed her women and children to seek sanctuary there and who rallied support for her.

American support without local buy in, will not work. We saw that in Afghanistan and Iraq where Taliban and ISIL took over the US weapons left over for the armies in those countries. Ukraine can stop this fight any time and let Russia destroy her.

This is where the incessant "marketing" of everything Russia bad is so dangerous. It distracts people away from the only possible way out - negotiation.

The Ukrainians are the people whose relatives are dying. They know full well what's going on, who attacked them and who's helping them. You're taking agancy away from them. Believe me, being from a post WP country I know better what was happening there having witnessed it first hand or having contact with reliable witnesses than some Western Millennials on Reddit.
 

Paulsie

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He plays an idealist card. If Ukraine is not perfect like some fairy tale country from some Disney book for kids, then it surely is evil and it should not be supported. Because sure as heck everyone else is perfect and has always been in times of war.

And it's so nice to complain that some medic who maybe has seen many Ukrainian casualties goes on a tirade while he's country is being bombed but to be cool while sitting in SA where one is 1000s of kms away from this.
My "faux outrage" was not aimed towards the medic, but was universal.

And I am certainly not idealistic. The thing is, someone always starts something, someone else retaliates and someone else get involved along the way.

Remember what happened in former Yugoslavia? It didn't matter that it was the Serbs who started this while thing. At the end of it all, the Serbs, the Croats and the Bosnian were all killing, torturing and raping each other. Not because there were at war, but because they hated each other.

Well today is much worse as the reasonable hatred is being fuelled beyond reason.
 

Dave

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just like Bucha? :cool:

Russia asked for an independent investigation,

This is not true. Russia asked it to not be investigated by the United Nations.


UN and ICC are investigating.


Typical, Orc simp #1 jumps in with what he has been told by his boss and when it's shown to (once again) be bullshit he disappears. He'll be back with more BS and lots of emojis soon though, pretending the above never happened.
 
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