Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part3

[Blu82]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540314693910265856

 

[Mirai]

Yes, that's is what the Ukrainian extremists also did.

The United Nations have reported 26 deaths of civilians in the Donbas in 2021. Most were due to finding an unexploded bomb or mine. So this rebuttal is false.

I pointed out this paradoxical view many times; imagine professed EFF haters supporting the Azinov and Ukraine's politics. Using "Western ideology is better" is not a defensible excuse either if individuals have no choice. That's Putinist thinking, it does not belong in democracy, nor the "ban the opposition" type of politics we're seeing.

We're talking practically. In practice we see big differences between the Russian way and the Western way.
The Western way is superior. In theory we could argue for an idealised state, but such does not exist. No perfection exists in the world. But European and Western way is superior to the Russian way in terms of human rights, freedom, liberty, protection for minority languages, etc. Ukraine wants to be Western and as someone who has seen the differences between the Western way and the previous Russian (politicians brought in on tanks way), the West is better.

It's not that simple.

People did not have to die, a lot was avoidable. That's why some like me don't support Russian politicians, don't support Ukraine and it's politics, don't support US/NATO politicians. Power politics and humans don't mingle well.

In practice as someone who comes from the area and is used to Russian and Nazi hordes, deterrence and strength work. People don't have to die but this doesn't mean one should disarm because Russia will then act honourably. Russia does not act honourably but only respects strength. NATO is a guarantor of security in Europe and I am 100% behind it. It brings peace through deterrence. It's not offensive against a state like Russia because no Westerner would want to go and die and people are afraid of Russian nukes, both tactical and strategic.

 

[Mirai]

German Militarism is ramping up....

I doubt they will buy much. Have they actually signed any contracts for F35s or new tanks?

I know you're spinning this rise of Hitler or Prussia and the spectres of WW1 or 2 to support Russian disinformation and make Russia the lesser evil here, but even if we discount this type of prejudicial silliness, I would say it's unlikely the Germans will actually procure much.

 

[Mirai]

I did not call murica out for it very loudly back then either. There was no point then and there is no point now.

All I do is point out how Ukraine brought this on itself... I am not "calling it out" and I am not attacking it.... I am not particularly angry either except a bit over the donbas affair.

Victim blaming. Usual nonsense. Dear Raped Woman, if you just let the man have his way with you, he wouldn't have to hit you. If you became his willing sex slave, maybe he'd have spared you as he may have been satisfied
with just touching you instead of full rape.

Same garbage giving Russia the right of way to do what it wants while Ukraine must suck it. Because Putin stronk and anti-gay while the West is 'decadent'.

False masculinity.

 

[rambo919]

Victim blaming. Usual nonsense. Dear Raped Woman, if you just let the man have his way with you, he wouldn't have to hit you. If you became his willing sex slave, maybe he'd have spared you as he may have been satisfied
with just touching you instead of full rape.

Same garbage giving Russia the right of way to do what it wants while Ukraine must suck it. Because Putin stronk and anti-gay while the West is 'decadent'.

False masculinity.

Have you always been a 13jr old or did you just revert to it?

 

[Mirai]

Have you always been a 13jr old or did you just revert to it?

Putin stronk because anti-gay. Is that your spiel?

 

[Nicodeamus]

I doubt they will buy much. Have they actually signed any contracts for F35s or new tanks?

I know you're spinning this rise of Hitler or Prussia and the spectres of WW1 or 2 to support Russian disinformation and make Russia the lesser evil here, but even if we discount this type of prejudicial silliness, I would say it's unlikely the Germans will actually procure much.

talk about putting words in my mouth.

No I think that if Germany militarize they will eventually negotiate the Americans out of NATO And become even more dominant in Europe.
That is if they can sort their energy conundrum out.

 

[Mirai]

talk about putting words in my mouth.

No I think that if Germany militarize they will eventually negotiate the Americans out of NATO And become even more dominant in Europe.
That is if they can sort their energy conundrum out.

First they're unlikely to really militarise.

Secondly, they're even less likely to get the Americans out because Americans have important interests in Europe and they have to do with constraining China.

Finally this is a potential on top of a potential on top of a potential.... the threat to Europe is attacking Ukraine right now. It's irrational to follow your predictions and be concerned about them.

 

[Nicodeamus]

First they're unlikely to really militarise.

Secondly, they're even less likely to get the Americans out because Americans have important interests in Europe and they have to do with constraining China.

Finally this is a potential on top of a potential on top of a potential.... the threat to Europe is attacking Ukraine right now. It's irrational to follow your predictions and be concerned about them.

The US has a lot of debt and during the Trump era many of the elites were warming up to the idea of limiting US withdrawal going back to the wisdom of John Quincy Adams,

And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind? Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

Eventually the US debt will get the best of them.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/#

 

[vaakseun]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540166689102434304

Looks like Australia supplying the Luhansk Peoples Republic with air defence systems?



#boomerang

 

[Mirai]

The US has a lot of debt and during the Trump era many of the elites were warming up to the idea of limiting US withdrawal going back to the wisdom of John Quincy Adams,

Yes there are many schools of thought and many think tanks in the US. So far the US is actually increasing their presence in Europe. Russian militarism is likely to make Germany weaker because less cheap gas and oil will cause the German economy to be less competitive. Hence German militarism is less likely long term.

China is a major threat to the US and EU siding economically with China would be very bad for America. They'll be in Europe for a while.

Eventually the US debt will get the best of them.

This is again a prediction of no worth. US may require additional subsidies for their bases. If the Germans won't have them, other Europeans will.

Again potentialities which are not likely to occur, but fits your usual FUD tactic.

 

[Cray]

Have you always been a 13jr old or did you just revert to it?

How far would you throw your toys if I said something similar to you Rambo?

 

[Nicodeamus]

Yes there are many schools of thought and many think tanks in the US. So far the US is actually increasing their presence in Europe. Russian militarism is likely to make Germany weaker because less cheap gas and oil will cause the German economy to be less competitive. Hence German militarism is less likely long term.

China is a major threat to the US and EU siding economically with China would be very bad for America. They'll be in Europe for a while.




This is again a prediction of no worth. US may require additional subsidies for their bases. If the Germans won't have them, other Europeans will.

Again potentialities which are not likely to occur, but fits your usual FUD tactic.

China is just the latest in a long list of boogeyman to justify the military industrial complex.

 

[Mirai]

China is just the latest in a long list of boogeyman to justify the military industrial complex.

That's not my concern. My concern is keeping Russians out of Europe.

And it's not like China is not militarising itself.

 

[Nicodeamus]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540008805693640706

Bulgaria ousted their Anti Russia leaders in a no confidence vote, Russian coup d'etat like in Pakistan? .

 

[Nicodeamus]

That's not my concern. My concern is keeping Russians out of Europe.

And it's not like China is not militarising itself.

Your double speak is strong though.
Russia is supposed to be a weak nation with a GDP the size of Italy, with an army that cannot win against Ukraine in the dombas, with a military that is in decline and a society that is incapable of inventing anything scientifically.

Yet in the same breathe you believe that this ominous threat requires the biggest military alliance in human history with a budget much more expensive than what the US had to confront the Soviet Union?

Which one is it?

 

[Mirai]

Your double speak is strong though.
Russia is supposed to be a weak nation with a GDP the size of Italy, with an army that cannot win against Ukraine in the dombas, with a military that is in decline and a society that is incapable of inventing anything scientifically.

Yet in the same breathe you believe that this ominous threat requires the biggest military alliance in human history with a budget much more expensive than the Soviet Union?

So you either misunderstood me or you understood me but are being argumentative.

Russian society is not incapable of producing things which benefit mankind. Their political organisation and ideology of their politicians pushes them to want 18th century like conquest where men can be sent to die in war the way the Tsars and the First Secretaries of the communist party did. They use their natural resources to procure weapons or influence foreign companies/politicians which is bad for others. They also have nukes and weapons are cheap. Cheap weapons in large quantities can do a lot of damage to civilian populations.

Which one is it?

 

[Nicodeamus]

So you either misunderstood me or you understood me but are being argumentative.

Russian society is not incapable of producing things which benefit mankind. Their political organisation and ideology of their politicians pushes them to want 18th century like conquest where men can be sent to die in war the way the Tsars and the First Secretaries of the communist party did. They use their natural resources to procure weapons or influence foreign companies/politicians which is bad for others. They also have nukes and weapons are cheap. Cheap weapons in large quantities can do a lot of damage to civilian populations.

Do tell me which country spends the most on its military budget and which country is currently involved in most of the wars around the world?
All empires behave this way, it's time to take your rose coloured USA blinkers off.

 

[Mirai]

Do tell me which country spends the most on its military budget and which country is currently involved in most of the wars around the world?

This doesn't tell me anything. What tells me is that there is a war a few km's from EU and NATO. It's the country which is itself built by conquest (Moscow conquered all the other Russian republics), was a Tsarist imperialist empire, was the evil empire of the USSR (and murdered millions) and enslaved millions, and of course now started to invade and commit atrocities in Ukraine, Chechnya and other places, since the USSR collapsed, all the while threatening to use their nuclear weapons, influencing and causing discord among EU members and telling European countries they cannot be members of NATO, even present NATO members. None of this is Russia's business. I can't be responsible for the whole world, but whether the US does good in Europe - and it does good in Europe - as an European I am 100% in agreement with this, is not relevant to what you may claim US sometimes does elsewhere. If Russia cleaned out some ISIS, I would not be too critical of this, as long as they did not cause too much collateral damage and did it humanely etc.

All empires behave this way, it's time to take your rose coloured USA blinkers off.

US actually has benefits for me and millions across Europe. It balances out the different powers and for smaller and medium countries this is beneficial. It's not harmful to larger EU countries either. It's just bad for Russia essentially. Because Russia can't influence Europe as much.

So I don't have rose coloured blinkers. You have some sort of Russophilia and you have a phobia for America. I would say take off your rose blinkers for Russia.

 

[Mirai]

Actually Yanakovic was democratically elected
Even Zelensky was elected on a platform to make peace with Russia

Not to become a Russian satellite or puppet state.

It's on Russia's borders, they have legitimate security concerns against a hostile military alliance.

The alliance is not hostile to Russia. NATO is not going to attack Russia unless Russia attacks first.

The CIA helped the Apartheid regime with intelligence to imprison Nelson Mandela, he was on their terrorist watch list until the 2000s.

Yes because of the USSR.

Actually polls show that most wanted peace Jacobin Magazine ran an article on that.

A Ukrainian Sociologist Explains Why Everything You Know About Ukraine Is Probably Wrong

The Ukraine crisis is extremely complex and little understood. Sociologist Volodymyr Ishchenko explains the crisis’s origins, the fictions that surround it, and why war is still far from inevitable.

jacobin.com

They're certainly celebrating now that they're getting their EU candidacy.

Guess what, the average Ukranian doesn't want any of this geopolitical games.

They want peace and a better life. For example better longetivity the way Europe has better longetivity than Russia.

really? who did I insult personally?

I think you read a list of high school fallacies and are using them as a "gotcha moment". Facts can be stuborn and shattering to your fragile world view.

I just point out your faulty logic. Learn from it and improve yourself.