SA’s black population considering emigration — survey

[ForceFate]

A free market was all that was needed. Things would have progressed naturally imho. Instead, things have regressed.

Aim of the legislation was to get those previously marginalised (as defined by the legislations) by the apartheid government into various fields and industries as a way of leveling the field. Of course there were loopholes those tasked with implementation exploited.

 

[Neptuner]

"BEE" and EE were necessary evils after the fall of apartheid. Unfortunately, the politicians and to some extend private sector, stuffed up the implementation.

So collapsing our economy and everyone's livelihood was a necessity?

Do you replace a reliable alternator on your vehicle because you dislike the installed Chinese make for a questionable South African version? you won't obviously, because you run the risk of not being able to start your vehicle and affect your daily bread... then why justify doing it on the scale it was done. Brushing it off as failed implementation is just a poor excuse. The policy reeks of entitlement and racism, and we see it today for what it is, destructive and spreading racism.

 

[Neptuner]

Aim of the legislation was to get those previously marginalised (as defined by the legislations) by the apartheid government into various fields and industries as a way of leveling the field. Of course there were loopholes those tasked with implementation exploited.

The entire education system was altered to lower the playing field, don't forget that...

 

[HowTo]

If they are feedup what next.
Ther is 65 miljoen too select for imegration.
Department of homeaffairs will have lots of work Passport to issue

 

[dlk001]

Aim of the legislation was to get those previously marginalised (as defined by the legislations) by the apartheid government into various fields and industries as a way of leveling the field. Of course there were loopholes those tasked with implementation exploited.

I'm personally glad there was an intentional intervention because I never experienced natural progression. In fact, I experienced the opposite.

I just came out of a meeting to discuss barriers to the inclusion of Females and People Living with a Disability. I'm happy we have a conscious effort because, in the past, I never experience willingness at all the companies I worked for.

 

[ForceFate]

So collapsing our economy and everyone's livelihood was a necessity?

Do you replace a reliable alternator on your vehicle because you dislike the installed Chinese make for a questionable South African version? you won't obviously, because you run the risk of not being able to start your vehicle and affect your daily bread... then why justify doing it on the scale it was done. Brushing it off as failed implementation is just a poor excuse. The policy reeks of entitlement and racism, and we see it today for what it is, destructive and spreading racism.

/Facepalm

 

[EADC]

FW de Klerk shares the same sentiments. The Apartheid regime could have taken harsher measures, perhaps shifting the population geographically across provinces and construct independence accordingly. They had the power to do this. Also, we saw what the English did in Australia in the 1800's and early 1900's. So we need to stop pretending that things couldn't have been worse and that the now ANC was pure good, we see this today only a few from the ANC were truly seeking liberation the rest were on the bandwagon and had ulterior motives.

Coming back to the article: Here's the funny part given the history of SA and what this article is alluding to, we now see black people flocking abroad to the "imperial" lands, so you can't argue about how terrible SA is because of Apartheid yet when they move to England/Netherlands they won't dare propagate their hypocrisy in these lands they immigrate to. We cannot generalize by stating professionals are plainly wanting to leave to seek better opportunities elsewhere.

We need to honest the ANC's days of blaming the Apartheid regime ended 1994. There was a myth created that it was acceptable to blame Apartheid regime, the entire country entertained this narrative for too long to the point that it created the mess we find ourselves in. An extension of this: white monopoly capital nonsense. If you have any black friends or work colleagues look at the propaganda spewing social media. It's all about taking the land back and owning things, it's destructive to say the least. It's not about building and creating. Therefore many blacks cannot associate with this mentality they leave SA for these reasons...

It is acceptable to blame apartheid denying it's impact is silly.

You can blame apartheid and the current government it's not an either or scenario.

People can leave for what ever reasons they choose.

 

[Gyre]

In my stating "incrementally", and you just going nuclear from the outset, you're trying to set up a strawman. The laws are there for all to see, and incrementally getting stricter. Refer the next set of laws that give the minister the power to "prescribe targets" in any sector and manner he deems fit. Slowly but surely.

Many departments I know of have black managers with white (and black/other) employees, this is not even strange anymore. You would be hard-pressed to find an all-white department anywhere... due to the laws that we are currently discussing!

I should have clarified and been more clear - in the context, I mean black managers with afrikaans subordinates under Apartheid. I recall a few afrikaans miners resigning in my home town when the prospect of working for a black manager came up.

 

[wingnut771]

Aim of the legislation was to get those previously marginalised (as defined by the legislations) by the apartheid government into various fields and industries as a way of leveling the field. Of course there were loopholes those tasked with implementation exploited.

The problem with that is they skipped a few steps and now we are in **** because it wasn't earned the hard way.

 

[ForceFate]

The entire education system was altered to lower the playing field, don't forget that...

Education system was not part of the AA legislations thus, not part of the discussion. No, education system was altered by overzealous politicians who were convinced by clever presentation and nothing else.

 

[Gyre]

Eish, what is your position.

Current race based laws are good but not the apartheid ones?

All race based laws are good, but just some more good/bad/indifferent, selectively by degrees to personal taste?

All race based laws are bad?

I never said BEE is right, but comparing BEE to Apartheid is like comparing a car crash to falling off your bicycle.

I also assume that discrimination still outweighs any good BEE tries to do, so you have individual discrimination and government discrimination. We can't hope that either will "do the right thing" on their own.

 

[ForceFate]

The problem with that is they skipped a few steps and now we are in **** because it wasn't earned the hard way.

Technically, no. Initially the law did not mandate industry to implement the law against good judgement. What did the industry do? They ignored the law altogether.

Then regulations were tightened a little more, industry circumvented this by creating parallel positions or duplications to maintain the status quo. This was not only visible at exec level, but all the way down to supervisory level.

 

[Neptuner]

Education system was not part of the AA legislations thus, not part of the discussion. No, education system was altered by overzealous politicians who were convinced by clever presentation and nothing else.

LOL you just clueless, you can't see the forest for the trees...

 

[ForceFate]

LOL you just clueless, you can't see the forest for the trees...

It's not like you have any clue either.

/Chuckles.

 

[Neptuner]

It's not like you have any clue either.

/Chuckles.

Hiding behind failed implementation it's just denial, everyone knows it doesn't work. The proof is in the pudding... and mmmmm! doesn't it taste nice hahaha

 

[Bonywasawarrioraway]

White players who were also not ready for international cricket were also put into the team but never got the same amount of scrutiny.

AB took a couple of years to get to legendary level. He was not totally convincing in the first few years of his career but the selectors persisted with him because they knew what he was capable of. Kallis was also apparently poor in his first few games. We all know how poor Amla was when he first came into the team but apparently Kallis was as poor at the start.

Even Elgar was very poor at the start and was not dropped.

You are absolutely correct. In fact if I remember correctly Kallis was even dropped as a result of his poor start. Their selection WAS criticised just not on racial grounds. The existence of quotas / AA however leads to the temptation to criticise on racial grounds as in "ah he/she has been selected as a quota player"
In this sense at least the quotas are counter productive as they introduce grounds for racial stress instead of removing them.
It is interesting to note that in at least one instance the beneficiary (so to speak) of an AA / quota decision was mortified by it. I refer of course to the replacement (11th hour) of an on form (red hot) kyle abbott by Vernon Philander in the 2015 world cup semi final (that we lost) Philander's selection was irrational as he had just been declared fit to play after an injury whereas Abbot had shone in his absence.

The actual merits of the decision seven years later are less interesting / important than the fact that Philander himself was upset at having been inserted last minute as he felt that it would imply that he was a quota player which he certainly was not.

The point is this. As long as quotas exist incumbents of positions will always know that there are those that believe they are there only because of their race.

No matter who one selects / appoints there will always be those who disagree and believe someone else to be more worthy, why hand them, on a platter, an excuse to make it about race, or any other reason other than merit?

 

[EADC]

You are absolutely correct. In fact if I remember correctly Kallis was even dropped as a result of his poor start. Their selection WAS criticised just not on racial grounds. The existence of quotas / AA however leads to the temptation to criticise on racial grounds as in "ah he/she has been selected as a quota player"
In this sense at least the quotas are counter productive as they introduce grounds for racial stress instead of removing them.
It is interesting to note that in at least one instance the beneficiary (so to speak) of an AA / quota decision was mortified by it. I refer of course to the replacement (11th hour) of an on form (red hot) kyle abbott by Vernon Philander in the 2015 world cup semi final (that we lost) Philander's selection was irrational as he had just been declared fit to play after an injury whereas Abbot had shone in his absence.

The actual merits of the decision seven years later are less interesting / important than the fact that Philander himself was upset at having been inserted last minute as he felt that it would imply that he was a quota player which he certainly was not.

The point is this. As long as quotas exist incumbents of positions will always know that there are those that believe they are there only because of their race.

No matter who one selects / appoints there will always be those who disagree and believe someone else to be more worthy, why hand them, on a platter, an excuse to make it about race, or any other reason other than merit?

Now hear me out this might be controversial, but you know you can be critical of someone for being **** and no need to bring race into it.

But I guess that is far out there.

 

[Phylax]

"BEE" and EE were necessary evils after the fall of apartheid. Unfortunately, the politicians and to some extend private sector, stuffed up the implementation.

Apartheid was a necessary evil to give the Afrikaner a place to call home. Unfortunately, the politicians and to some extend private sector, stuffed up the implementation.

 

[wingnut771]

Education system was not part of the AA legislations thus, not part of the discussion. No, education system was altered by overzealous politicians who were convinced by clever presentation and nothing else.

I remember the education department offering early retirement to white teachers in their drive to get rid of them (1995). I also remember the department piloting an experiment in my matric year (1996) that nothing counted the whole year except the matric final exam. Since then the syllabus has changed multiple times and the pass mark just gets lower and lower.

 

[ForceFate]

Apartheid was a necessary evil to give the Afrikaner a place to call home. Unfortunately, the politicians and to some extend private sector, stuffed up the implementation.

Is that why they introduced legislation that disenfranchised non-whites, banned non-whites from marrying whites, prevented non-whites from getting involved in certain trades and fields, limited non-white movement in certain areas, spent a 10th of what they spent on whites on blacks, implemented laws that stipulated whites should earn way more than blacks, etc?

I can link you to various legislations that made all of this possible. You're welcome.