SA pays R26m of Liberian debt

South Africa's tax system is a free piggy bank for Africa. Yes or No?

  • No

    Votes: 9 25.7%
  • Yes

    Votes: 25 71.4%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    35

Leitmotif

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Well of course, it could have built Mbeki three more walls...

When you have townships with undeveloped infrastructure, and a huge unemployment rate, money can solve problems. Money can employ the unemployed, pay for raw materials, pay for engineers... it can help the people better their own lives. It's being misallocated.

I agree partly with the people who claim that we have enough money. The part I agree with is that it is being mismanaged. This government doesn't even know how to start helping people. Instead, they're merely helping themselves.
 

BobbyMac

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Rad. The concept of charity means nothing to you.
If people had to earn it, then it is a wage. Not charity
So get the private sector to contribute on a charity level - even get Oprah - don't use public tax money when there are severe problems locally.
 

protzkrog

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ja jis, get Oprah...sheesh...whats R26 mil to her
and she is mos a African American...she should help her struggling comrades in Africa

Our people should have priority above the Liberians
 

fivelza

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Well of course, it could have built Mbeki three more walls...

When you have townships with undeveloped infrastructure, and a huge unemployment rate, money can solve problems. Money can employ the unemployed, pay for raw materials, pay for engineers... it can help the people better their own lives. It's being misallocated.

I agree partly with the people who claim that we have enough money. The part I agree with is that it is being mismanaged. This government doesn't even know how to start helping people. Instead, they're merely helping themselves.
I agree that R26m is a heck of a lot of money and we can always use more in South Africa, but see this against a The Department of Justice who underspent their budget by R600m, they had the money, just didn't have the ability/capacity/brains to apply the funds properly. We have the money to address many of the issues raised here, the ones that can be solved by simply throwing money at it.
 

BobbyMac

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it's like taking R1 out of 1m and saying i could have done something with that R1, when there is still R999 999, R1 doesn't mean a thing.
The point is it's 26 million rand. That's more than 500 RDP houses. Last time I checked we still had people living in shacks in this country. R26 million rand is still enough to help hundreds of poor, destitute people in this country. R26 Million Rand is enough to increase the social grant by an additional R150 per month for a year to more than 14000 people. R26 Million rand can install more than 8000 phone lines. 26 Million Rand can tar 250 kilometers of roadways in Soweto. 26 Million Rand can clean our rivers of pollution.

What's it going to do for Liberia? Nothing - it's only repaying a debt - they're not going to do anything with the money themselves. Put it this way, Liberia is probably going to get into more debt anyway, so wtf is the point of settling any of their debt when a debt write-off is what is actually required? Why not give them AID instead? At least that would probably be more appreciated by normal Liberian citizens - and probably change more lives anyway.
 

Skeptik

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What a farce ... one hand out to the EU and the US begging, and with the other donating to the rest of Africa. There is probably more to this than meets the eye. ANC favour to Liberia prob.
 

LoneGunman

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there's probably mineral rights concessions lurking - folks should sniff around
and see what Liberia has, or is planning, that SA wants a part of.

Despite public PR - few States give a crap about humanitarian anything,
its almost always to do with business deals and future plans.. so my gut
feel is 'mineral rights' - be it oil, precious metals of some kind, and/or real
estate deals. Liberia has 'something' - that individuals in the ANC want
a slice of.
The public story is 'charity' and 'being helpful to fellow yaddayadda..' -
but thats not how business works.
So the private real story, lies in snooping to see what Liberia has, that
the corrupt fcuks of the ANC are eager to throw some crumbs at, in order
to sweeten their bargaining position, on something..

Its not to give themselves good PR for the rest of Africa. Because - the rest
of Africa knows full well that SA is the most advanced, built up, and relatively
well functioning country in the whole mess of this continent - despite its
downward spiral now. So suggestions that its a 'goodwill' gesture, is just a
smokescreen for the actual reason. 26 mllion is breadcrumbs to SA, but to
Liberia, it helps pay off some of the interest on debts and is probably a lot
to them - but its a deal sweetener quantity of money, not enough to really
'do' anything major, but act as a clear sign of intent of some sort by the fcucks
of the ANC, in whatever deals are going down.
 
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diabolus

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Jstrike said:
protzkrog : That R26m will not do any real good in SA. We have more than enough money. Money isn't the problem
So, why not help other people out.
Ok, lets change the name in that topic from Liberia to ZIMBABWE. What would people say then? It's one thing to help a country that just plain had bad luck [i.e. indonesia style] but totally different to help a country that is mis-managed and corrupt.

NOTE: I don't know the political situation of Liberia , so i can't say whether they are another Congo/Zim [i.e. constant civil wars, human right violations,corruption etc] , but i'm sure people will view it differently if it was Zimbabwe [with mugabe receiving the benefits of the debt reduction].
 

fivelza

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Maybe we have all missed the boat here and it is the ADB that needs the money...just a thought.
 

Skeptik

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Ok, lets change the name in that topic from Liberia to ZIMBABWE. What would people say then? It's one thing to help a country that just plain had bad luck [i.e. indonesia style] but totally different to help a country that is mis-managed and corrupt.

NOTE: I don't know the political situation of Liberia , so i can't say whether they are another Congo/Zim [i.e. constant civil wars, human right violations,corruption etc] , but i'm sure people will view it differently if it was Zimbabwe [with mugabe receiving the benefits of the debt reduction].
SA does help Zim. They provide electricity and some other tings. They don't always want or get payment. SA also buys vegetables from Zim and forgets to label it as such. Amounts to far for than 26 Mill.
 

LoneGunman

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Bear in mind the DRC is RICH and filled with a variety of assorted minerals
that the West is very keen on. There's stuff used in microchips and cellphones
that the DRC has tons of, which the West is desperate for. Coltan.
read War, Murder, Rape... All for Your Cell Phone
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/congo/2006/0915cellphone.htm
Stolen Goods: Coltan and Conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo (Spring 2002)
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/news/22.1montague.pdf
Zimbabwe, I'm not sure what its mineral resources are -
"About 60% of the country (Zim) is covered by an Archaen Granite Greenstone terrain well known for its rich endowment of gold and base metals. Cutting across the entire Archaen is the famous Great Dyke hosting one of the world’s largest reserves of chrome and platinoids. Covering the edges of the Archaen terrain are younger sedimentary rocks hosting huge reserves of coal."
http://www.geosurvey.co.zw/

lot of articles at Minerals in Conflict
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/mineindex.htm

If the above and other articles are eye openers.. ask yourself 'how come' SA media isn't filling in the info about the underlying back and forth deals and conflicts in Africa - and enjoying peoples vague ideas that its all about tribal and fuzzy unexplained 'land' issues.

The ANC isnt fiddling with DRC because its a nice helpful Party - its purely business and profit.

Ditto for whatevers occurring in Liberia..
 
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BobbyMac

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@LG: I also read somewhere recently that SA's gold production is now at its lowest since 1959 or something like that. We're getting to the end of the gold mining road it would seem.
 

LoneGunman

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funny you mention that.. I see
"Mineral production in Liberia consisted mainly of artisanal
recovery of diamond and gold. The Government encouraged
investment in natural resource development, although formal
economic activity has been slow to recover since the end of the
civil war in 1997. International exploration increased in 2000
as companies came to Liberia to examine what has been
described as one of the last areas of virtually unexplored rocks
in the world. Eastern Liberia is made up of rocks of Birimian
age with significant potential for gold. Western Liberia is made
up of rocks of Archean age that contain diamond, gold, iron ore,
nickel, manganese, palladium, platinum, and uranium..
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...ia+mineral+resources&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

Maybe thats why the ANC is making nice, and throwing breadcrumbs..?

Its an African form of globalization and 'outsourcing' in process, maybe. In other words, as the local SA folks
get unionized and want better salaries, health packages and unions - the mining houses quietly
slow down and shrug using the 'gold running out' story - then quietly move operations to Liberia and
other places where people will work for starvation wages, thus ensuring a massive spike in
profits..

And as the Government and Big Business are in bed together (Mussolini's model for what fascism is, in essence)
- naturally the ANC is going to smooth the way for its friends to set up shop in Liberia and try snag some prime
mining concessions.
Its a theory :)
 
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Tanarri

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ToxicBunny : Fair enough. But I dont think government is ignoring our own problems. And donating R26m shouldn't distract them from the task at hand
They are certainly not ignoring the problems, they are enjoying it: They host ANC money shower events sponsored by Telkom every month.
 

Sneeky

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What is SA getting in return? We wont just sommer part with our gravy, must be something in it for the us.
 
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Nod

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Reading the quick overview on Liberia is interesting.
On July 26, 1847, the Americo-Liberian settlers declared the independence of the Republic of Liberia. The settlers regarded Africa as a "Promised Land," but they did not integrate into an African society. Once in Africa, they referred to themselves as "Americans" and were recognized as such by local Africans and by British colonial authorities in neighboring Sierra Leone. The symbols of their state — its flag, motto, and seal — and the form of government that they chose reflected their American background and diaspora experience.
They have strong ties with America.

In the early 1980s, the United States provided Liberia more than $500 million for pushing the Soviet Union out of the country, and for providing the US exclusive rights to use Liberia's ports and land (including allowing the CIA to use Liberian territory to spy on Libya).
Civil wars since 1989 ...
More than 200,000 people are estimated to have been killed in the civil wars. The conflict intensified in mid-2003, and the fighting moved into Monrovia. As the power of the government shrank and with increasing international and American pressure for him to resign, President Charles G. Taylor accepted an asylum offer from Nigeria, but vowed: "God willing, I will be back." His statement was proved prophetic on March 29, 2006, when he was extradited from Nigeria . He is expected to face 17 charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity before a United Nations tribunal holding proceedings in the Hague to address alleged crimes committed during the brutal civil war.
Seems like a normal African country to me, even with the American heritage.
 
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