Short summation of the meeting with Sentech part 1

arf9999

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NB: These are not official minutes, details are summarized, and I'm writing this from my notes (and my handwriting sucks, and my Sentech pen stopped working [xx(] ) So please remember: E&OE and YMMV. Please take these notes as informational and incomplete, I'm not going to get into a debate about strategy and methods.


Date: 4 Sept;
Venue: Sentech offices, Fourways.
Attendees: About 10 MyWi users plus 1 observer, representatives from ST departments including Marketing, PR, Customer Service, Technical, Legal (No representative from Finance), Two external facilitators.

Key Issues discussed:
1. Bandwidth
As this is the key issue that I'm sure everyone wants to know about, I'll start here.
What happened in May?
Sentech's explanation:
When the MyWi service started, Sentech used their total pool of bandwidth and assigned bw to users of all their services from this pool: this included MyWi, InfoSat, VSTAR etc. They found that the MyWi users were impacting on the other services (it wasn’t said but between the lines it seems as if the open proxies may also have created problems here). In order to reduce this impact the MyWi users were put into a separate smaller pool, this was done at the beginning of May, which coincides with he period that the service degraded. It also seems that during this period, for some technical reason (which I don’t personally understand), users with lower latency got preference in terms of bw. Hence some people (noone for example) were receiving 90%+ of package, while others were receiving very little. The “fix” that was undertaken in August was supposed to correct this situation. The “fix” consisted of the following, Hardware upgrades of certain nodes, software upgrades of certain equipment, additional peering, and the installation of a new bw management system. The new bw management system works as follows: a separate pool of bandwidth is created for each package 128, 256, 512. The available bandwidth for each package is dynamically allocated to each active user (I.P.) equally within that package. i.e. If there is 2Mb/s available for 512 package users (NB this is just for clarity- I don’t know what the actual numbers are), and there are 10 active IPs of 512 package users, the available bandwidth for each user will be 2Mb/s divided by 10. Each user will therefore have around 200kb/s international bw – whether they are using all of it or not.

Our Response:
This is the actual problem, everyone is getting equal bandwidth in a package, no matter what each user requires. This is bw sharing and not contention. It basically means that a user will never get close to the maximum bandwidth, as long as many other users are online – no matter what their real demand for bw is. A power downloader will be assigned the same bw as someone who is just downloading a web page. A keep-alive ping alone will mean that bandwidth is allocated to the IP address, even if it is not required. A demand was tabled that Sentech investigate this immediately, and institute the correct contention based allocation of bw. From what was said in the meeting it does seem that they do have enough international bw.

End of part 1.

Part 2 to follow when I get some time to type…


MW128, Tower <b>60</b>(Northpark Plaza), Signal:16%,S-N-L: 7, BER: 45%
 

Headend

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WTF, If this is how they set-up the bandwidth management, what's to say they're going to be able to get it right now. I thought they had some highly paid consultants to help them "fix" their system. Surely these guys should understand contention???

PS: Arf, thanks for taking the time to give us some feedback. I really appreciate it[:)]
 

lewstherin

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Headend, that was my reaction too [:)]
I think the idea was to ensure that they didn't have users getting vastly differing speeds, however sharing as an answer is just plain stupid in my opinion...
Contention is the way...especially considering that Sentech claims to have reduced contention to 15:1.

I believe the CUG will be pressing Sentech to institute contention with all possible haste.

<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
 

hArTh

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Thy are sharing not contending?

Jebus now thats a scary thought!

Methinks "ISPs for dummies" would be a welcome Xmax gift for the ST management :)

-Information anarchist-
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I support:
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Read about MaD of hellkom being sued for R5million by Telkom:
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noswal

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Who in sentech is the decision maker, ie. is it an admin person saying this is what we must do or is it a technical person saying and doing or is it too many people in authority?


_________________________________________________________________________
custenna, variable 8 - 13 signal, ber 28% - 42%.<i> "I am the only one with this problem." </i>
 

guest2013-1

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Yea, the reason for me getting good speeds before the implementation of the bandwidth manager was because of my TCP Ack's coming through much faster than someone, for instance, on the Brixton tower (because I connect directly to Radiokop which is their central hub for distro of bw etc)

All roads lead to rome, and I had a shortcut [:p]

BTW, I was actually suprised at how many people recognized me before I even introduced myself :)

Hell, my gran on a scooter with a memory stick is faster than Sentech's MyWireless!
 

guest2013-1

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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noswal</i>
<br />Who in sentech is the decision maker, ie. is it an admin person saying this is what we must do or is it a technical person saying and doing or is it too many people in authority?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, Winston Smith and Marcel Raath is the top okes there, however, a rep from each department (not finance) including legal was there, but ultimatly Winston looks like the main honcho (however on a tight leash from Marcel)

This is what I could SEE, this is not fact.... we were too consumed into finding out the answers to our questions than to play office politics :)

Hell, my gran on a scooter with a memory stick is faster than Sentech's MyWireless!
 

dbnnet

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The main honcho is Marcel Raath not Winston Smith.
(This is an organization (parastatal) where the job grade is EVERYTHING).
Marcel is the one pulling the strings.... problem is (in my opinion)
that he is in WAY OVER HIS HEAD!!
Anyone who heard his interiew on 702 would know what I mean!!!

I think that Winston is really trying ... but Marcel has tied both his hands behind his back!!!!
So yes, noone is right...there is indeed a "tight leash"!

<font size="1"><font color="black">Bay of Plenty :</font id="black"><font color="blue"> Signal 48% - SNL 17 - ber 71% :</font id="blue"><font color="green"> D-Link DI-604 - PPPoE :</font id="green"><font color="orange"> 8dBi Patch Antenna :</font id="orange"> Firmware 5.0.1.60</font id="size1">
 

nocilah

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just a question...

You mention that on the 1st of May MiWi users were give their own pool... and now we each get equal bandwidth wether we use it or not... If they had to use real contention would that mean that bandwdith is unfairly distributed or... for example... I am surfing and you are downloading... is bandwdith demanded on request as opposed to what is happening now?

And why cant each user simply get given more Int BW?

Confused... but thanks for sharing.
 

Tharaxis

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Here's a kinda crude example of how a contention would work over the current sharing:

Contention:

There's 512K allocated between 2 of us, you, and me.

You download a 20KB file and I download a 5MB file (160Kilobits and 5120Kilobits).

While we are both downloading our speeds are "roughly" identical, however, your file is substantially smaller than my file and what you end up with is a period where you have completed your file and are no longer downloading (you're reading the website you just opened, etc.), while my download continues to go, but this time, during the break period, it jumps up to the full 512K (or close to it). That way you don't see a difference in performance, and I don't see a difference in performance, and to both of us the internet feels responsive and fast. (This is an example and a crude one at that)

Sharing:

There's 512K allocated between the two of us, you, and me.

You download a 20KB file and I download a 5MB file (160Kilobits and 5120Kilobits).

Because we are sharing 512K between the two of us, the MAXIMUM speed you can ever achieve is 256K, however this is still greater than the file you are downloading and you should not see any performance decrease, your connection should appear as responsive and fast as it was in the past. BUT, my 5MB download is continuing but I've also only got 256K, which means my download will end up taking twice as long as it would over a contended service, suddenly my connection isn't as responsive anymore.

Contention does not mean that bandwidth is "unfairly distributed", but instead means that bandwidth is "intelligently distributed on the network to those who require it". An individual browsing uses only a fraction of the bandwidth and would see no decrease in performance if his "spare" bandwidth is allocated to someone else (this is how ALL contended services from ADSL to ISDN to Dialup, and yes, even Diginet) function, just because you've invested in a 512K service does not mean you get 512K allocated to you regardless of whether you use it or not. You will only get given 512K of the total pool IF you are using it (compared to a shared service where your bandwidth is shared and you are given ###K regardless of whether you are using it or not).

Contention is the better solution and if they implement it correctly (which any ISP worth its salt should do) everyone should see a marked improvement in performance.
 

lewstherin

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nice summary Tharaxis. Basically contention works by constantly evaluating the bandwidth demand at a given point in time, and distributing bandwidth evenly for the given demands.

Hence with contention over 5 seconds, the following could happen, using Tharaxis's example:
1 s: I request a web page, you request a file download = result 256kbps each
2 s: I have received an image, rest of the page is in transit (no activity), your download continues = 512k for you
3 s: The rest of my page comes down, your d/l continues = 256kbps each
4 s: No activity as I read my page, your d/l continues = result of full 512kbps to you
etc etc

Under sharing, because I requested something in second 1, my IP is recorded, and 256k is set aside for me until I disconnect or get timed out on the sharing app.
Thus you will get 256k period.

This is why you will notice that contended services spike a lot, because the software is constantly adjusting bandwidth to meet the demands at that moment...
Contention is actually the same as sharing except that it is happening continuously, not per session.

Clearly Sentech is actually wasting precious bandwidth, and it can be fixed so easily!!

<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
 

arf9999

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One thing to note is that it is a dynamic sharing: i.e. it checks <b>active</b> IPs, and changes sharing on the fly. So if you are merely connected, and not sending or receiving any data, you will not be allocated any bw. But if you have any activity, no matter how small the bw requirement, you will be allocated your share of the bw for that period of time. (I don't know what this period is).

So we mustn't make it seem too simplistic, their bw management software is actually doing quite a lot...it's just not the right thing. Good news is that it seems that the bw manager CAN handle contention. We just need to pressurise them to institute this.
 

nocilah

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Thanks for all that... makes sense now...

So why shouldnt they institute this cuz it sounds like it would solve alot of the speed issues?

hmmm never mind... I just remebered the transparent proxy thingy :)
 

MrGray

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I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that Sentech divides bandwidth between inactive connections? 16 Long weeks after putting mywireless users into a separate pool when the problems started, they have produced this idiotic situation? Pull the other one, please, because I can't possibly believe that any ISP would be this backward.

Does anyone realise that this means that all those users that leave their modems connected all the time (probably most of us) are essentially reserving a share of the bandwidth and therefore reducing what is available to others? In fact, this would make sense going back months - remember how much bandwidth was briefly available after every network crash/shutdown?? Obviously what was happening is that many users weren't physically present to reconnect and therefore the bandwidth pool was divided between fewer people.

It's lovely that there is all this sudden wellbeing and co-operation with Sentech, but honestly, isn't this just taking it too far?

16 Weeks.

Just a question. If they have got it right with local bandwidth and they appear to have sufficient international bandwidth, what's the problem? Why am I still crawling along at 48kbps on a 256k package? Or are they holding off on implementing it because they've discovered how many millions they are making like this?

And another question, if 128, 256 and 512k users are in different bandwidth pools how come all packages seem to get the same max throughput on international bandwidth, shared, contended, capped or otherwise? Does not compute.
 

Wireless2

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And everytime someone new signs a contract the bandwidth is devided by x+1, no wonder it is getting worse every day
 

nocilah

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well... I wouldnt say the service has gotten worse or better.
And I also wouldnt say that they are making a killing with Int Bandwidth either.

but I would question the time... but hey... time I have... 1 year 8 months to be exact for Sentech to improve... but was going through iBursts website... very interesting. Thats all we need, healthy competition.
 

clivedoubell

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Well we at least know now why the Orcs at the helpdesk don't know how contention works. There is nobody upstairs in Sentech that knows how it works, that could explain it to them. Poor guys. In fact the experts upstairs think contention = sharing. I think they really should go and read their copies of "Networks for Dummies". It is absolutely incredible that these guys even think they can run an ISP.

Just my "grunt post" for the day.

Clive Doubell
www.cybermatix.com
galaxy.xq@cybermatix.com
 

moosag

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This is what happens when people who transfer SABC signals around the country try to open up their own ISP, they think Bunny Aerials are connected to all of our pcs. Hehehe.

At the end of the day this comes down to lack of expertise and experience. These guys at sentech have shot themselves in the foot. How Sad for them and for us. Hopefully they'll sort it out in the time to come.

Tower 90, 256K Package
 

Dean_Henstock

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Its quite sad, that the cannot manage there bandwidth a little better, a couple of router, linux boxes, packteers and you would have a proper network with contention ! [:D]

<b>I used the Internet once but then my sitffy drive broke.</b>
 

espeer

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A more fair approach is to weight allocation inversely to the amount of traffic generated over a given time period.

That is, a contended service where those that have used less bandwidth over the last, say 24 hour, period get a bigger slice of the current available bandwidth. That way, light users are rewarded with better speed and the more bandwidth you utilise (relative to the other users) the more you experience contention. So in effect, by not using your connection excessively you reserve a better spot in the queue for your packets when you do need it.

Let:
u(i) = the total bytes tranferred by user i during last period.
u_total = total bytes transferred by all users during last period.

Then, allocation of the available bandwidth for user i at time t becomes something like:

allocation(i, t) = u_total / (u(i) + u_total) * available_bandwidth(t)

Slightly harder to accomplish, I know, but not impossible. But then we are dealing with Sentech here... [V]
 
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