Should transgender athletes compete as their gender identity dictates?

Should transgender athletes compete as their gender identity dictates?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 5.6%
  • It depends on the circumstances / sport

    Votes: 34 11.8%
  • Absolutely not

    Votes: 231 80.2%
  • Other

    Votes: 7 2.4%

  • Total voters
    288

noxibox

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but they do have certain advantages? again, not fair for a Woman from birth, that trained and trained and trained to be the best,
only to be beaten by a she-man wearing a dress, as Men have different advantages to Women.

biology clearly gave certain advantages to either sex, so again, do you think they should allow people to compete as a woman when they "say" they are.

hell to the no.
Top athletes are born with physical advantages. No amount of training will allow someone without those advantages to be a top athlete. So there is no level playing field to begin with. We just have two sex categories for sport based on the expectation that on average men are stronger and faster than women on average.

Think about how much of what you do is dictated by your gender.
Behaviour may be broadly linked to a person’s sex, but it is very hard to separate nature from nurture. Parents start influencing their child the moment they’re born and they continue to do so constantly. Then comes influence from those around them as they grow up.

Gender, as opposed to sex, is thus fluid in most humans. It is also why non-binary is such a dumb category. Very few humans fit neatly into masculine or feminine. On the other hand those whose sex is not one or the other are very rare.

I don’t even know how homosexuality came to be grouped with all the trans nonsense. The real problem with identity politics is how regressive it is. We’ve gone from your sex doesn’t define you back to it pigeonholing you.
 

noxibox

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Yes, and no. I would say it should be divisional, not something as an international standard, but where 'special' licensing apply. Where all parties agree, it should be okay.

I don't want to see this in the Olympics, like the IAAF allow it. Where there are other promotions, sure.
The problem is that no-one wants to dare disagree. Any woman who objects gets subjected to a co-ordinated onslaught.
 

Gyre

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The problem is that no-one wants to dare disagree. Any woman who objects gets subjected to a co-ordinated onslaught.

Remember that women had their own challenges


1979 – It was illegal for women to play soccer in Brazil from 1941 to 1979

1993 – USA Boxing officially lifted its ban on women's boxing in 1993

2000 – The Aggressive Skaters Association created the so-called "Fabiola Rule", after Fabiola da Silva, which allowed women to compete in the formerly all-male vert competition.

Back then any men who objected got subjected to co-ordinated onslaughts because things were just a certain way because.

If you treat something as an exception instead of the norm, it will always feel strange, that is why equality can sometimes feel slanted, as if people are going out of their way to accomodate someone based on a previous disadvantage rather than recognizing them for their skill alone.
 

Ancalagon

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You're kidding? I can pull up stats of plenty of groups that have high suicidal rates and come to any conclusion I like, for instance why is suicide so high amongst men? Amongst homosexuals? Amongst Christians?

Of COURSE they face discrimination, this thread is a perfect example of the discrimination people face. I'm not denying it is a mental illness/problem, but there are a plethora of other socially acceptable mental issues which we at very least TOLERATE in our society. This has nothing to do with trans people in my eyes either, it is the glaring hypcorisy of our world that people preach freedom but **** on other people's freedoms 24/7.

Imagine if we had to have a thread whinging about prayer or the winning team thanking god every week, it's the kind of persecution christians could only dream of or crave. A person can't even come out as trans on their on social media platform without being called an attention whore, meanwhile there are actual evangelists committing mass fraud and scams. We leave those crooks and mentally ill people to their own devices, I don't see why we can't level the mentally ill people who have warped views of gender dysphoria to theirs.

Frankly I don't really mind what bathrooms they use. Doesn't really affect me if someone born a woman wants to use a men's bathroom.

But there are two things that I mind:

1. It is unfair for biological women to have to compete against biological men. Witness the recent MMA fight in which a male fighter beat the hell out of a female fighter. That is dangerous. It should be illegal.

You can claim you are whatever you like. You can say you are the Princess of Tanzania for all I care. But this should not entitle you to special treatment by others. You should not be allowed to compete against women just because you claim you are one. That is wrong. People aren't being "transphobic" by saying you shouldn't either. They aren't discriminating against YOU or saying you are a bad or horrible person. All that everyone is saying is, let's keep the playing field fair, and for some reason, that now becomes hate speech.

2. Our treatments for this disorder are not very effective, because A) many people who transition want to transition back, B) suicide rates don't seem to decline all that much after transitioning.

The fact is, not everyone who claims to be in the wrong body is really transgender. Some are just a little lost, perhaps abused, unhappy at home, unsure of their identity (who isn't, as a teenager?). But somehow you are not allowed to question this at all. Therapists can only confirm a person's gender identity, they can never question it. This means we never weed out those who just need a hug and some therapy. Everyone ends up getting hormones and the chop, and not everyone needs it.

This results in worse outcomes for people who claim they are trans. But hey, you can't say this stuff because you are accused of transphobia for doing so.

I will say that, very much like the race card, the accusation of transphobia is used as a shield to mean you effectively cannot debate gender theory at all. You can only agree with it. Any other position is blasphemy.
 

Cray

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Frankly I don't really mind what bathrooms they use. Doesn't really affect me if someone born a woman wants to use a men's bathroom.

But there are two things that I mind:

1. It is unfair for biological women to have to compete against biological men. Witness the recent MMA fight in which a male fighter beat the hell out of a female fighter. That is dangerous. It should be illegal.
All MMA is dangerous, people get injured and hurt all the time. I agree with your post in general about transwomen having a natural advantage but the danger aspect is not a great argument.
 

Gyre

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Frankly I don't really mind what bathrooms they use. Doesn't really affect me if someone born a woman wants to use a men's bathroom.

But there are two things that I mind:

1. It is unfair for biological women to have to compete against biological men. Witness the recent MMA fight in which a male fighter beat the hell out of a female fighter. That is dangerous. It should be illegal.

You can claim you are whatever you like. You can say you are the Princess of Tanzania for all I care. But this should not entitle you to special treatment by others. You should not be allowed to compete against women just because you claim you are one. That is wrong. People aren't being "transphobic" by saying you shouldn't either. They aren't discriminating against YOU or saying you are a bad or horrible person. All that everyone is saying is, let's keep the playing field fair, and for some reason, that now becomes hate speech.

2. Our treatments for this disorder are not very effective, because A) many people who transition want to transition back, B) suicide rates don't seem to decline all that much after transitioning.

The fact is, not everyone who claims to be in the wrong body is really transgender. Some are just a little lost, perhaps abused, unhappy at home, unsure of their identity (who isn't, as a teenager?). But somehow you are not allowed to question this at all. Therapists can only confirm a person's gender identity, they can never question it. This means we never weed out those who just need a hug and some therapy. Everyone ends up getting hormones and the chop, and not everyone needs it.

This results in worse outcomes for people who claim they are trans. But hey, you can't say this stuff because you are accused of transphobia for doing so.

I will say that, very much like the race card, the accusation of transphobia is used as a shield to mean you effectively cannot debate gender theory at all. You can only agree with it. Any other position is blasphemy.

1. Which MMA fight? The one fight was extremely one-sided, the following fight against a different MMA fighter resulted in Fox losing. The fighter that lost to Fox had lost multiple other fights. It doesn't excuse Fox's genetic advantage and in my eyes it shouldn't have been tolerated in the first place, but creating an image in people's heads of a man beating a woman to death is a stark contrast to two fighters of the same weight fighting in a full contact sport that they both prepared for.

All the biological factors and and personal bias removed from us however, is Fox a good fighter? People are trying to justify that Fox threw the first part of the fight to keep up appearances but it seems that they did struggle but came out on top in the end, since they produced far less testosterone than before. You have to also remember that Fox was cleared by doctors before the fight, it wasn't on a whim and a 1 week decision to transition.

2. I agree, I don't have the stats and it also seems like it is personal for a lot of people on their reasons to transition - what we can do is monitor the people in the public(singers, actors, celebs, etc) who have come out as trans over the past few months and see if they want to transition back or if they commit suicide.

The thing is that support for trans people is already as horrendous as it is, changing alone isn't going to fix things, they need support through all of it. it is no different to homosexuals who kill themselves, it isn't because they are unhappy with who they are, it is the lack of support.

Imagine A.) a homosexual person stating they will they could undo all the sex they had with same sex partners or B.) Reasoning that homosexuality can be talked out of people or denying someone a homosexual marriage because we think we know better than them. These things do happen and it doesn't translate across the board for everyone, we have to take every case on a case-by-case basis.

3. It does become transphobia when people care about what a person does on their own private profile or platform, but it isn't transphobia when discussing real life concerns like the impact on sports. What people do in their own privacy is perfectly fine, and we entertain a lot of social habits so that we can function as a society. So long as they are not forcing people to wax their testicles or showing their penis to kids, let them be who they want to be.
 

porchrat

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Allegedly, and I am not an MMA fan or fighter myself, cracked skulls are a common occurrence in all MMA fighting, like cracked ribs, broken noses, dislocated shoulders, etc.

There are also weight classes, so the perception that there is a 200kg beast beating up a 50kg woman with no fighting experience needs to be reconsidered. Men have clear advantages over women, but the way people are portraying these arguments is ridiculous.

Before the fight with Fox, you would swear that a cracked skull had never happened before in the woman's division. Now if you google it, it is all that shows up on the first 10 pages of google.
I don't think anyone is under the impression that there aren't weight classes.

Even with a male and a female in the same weight class the male is going to carry physiological advantages. Lung capacity, bigger heart, skeleto-muscular physiology, all of it is still different even after hormone therapy.
 

alanB

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Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
551
I have no idea what you are saying. I think I agree with you, so I don't know why you say that my logic is wrong.

Mental illness is indeed the cause and the "illness" is not real. Nobody is born in the wrong body.
Ok perhaps I misunderstood you.

I feel sympathy for people who have these issues, but that should not be used to overturn basic common sense.

Using the victimhood claim of "discrimination" as the prime problem here, that needs to be solved, is not a valid analysis of this issue IMO.

Allowing a man to compete against women in the olympic weight lifting competition is just group induced insanity IMO.

Cheering for a man beating up a woman is bloody evil IMO. Martial arts and competitions are one thing, and if women want to compete against each other - well that's their choice, but placing them in the same ring as an ex special forces male operative and pretending this is all fine, truly progressive and enlightened - is plain wrong - no matter what anyone says.

Trying to control public discourse to pretend there is no biological differences between men a women, and it's all "social conditioning" is just ludicrous! You can only distort reality for so long, before it rolls over you.

Trying to pretend that it's all a choice which anyone is free to take - is just rubbish. People should stop trying to build false realities in their minds and face reality, instead of trying to "re-imagine" their own preferred version of the world, which just doesn't exist. Do that too much, and you are literally going to go insane - because that is what the definition of insanity is.
 

j4ck455

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Jan 2, 2006
Messages
6,744
So if a woman spends her life working towards qualifying for the Olympics or any elite sporting group and the governing body rules that transgenders can compete against her, then she can either give up her dream or get beaten by a trans person with an unfair physical advantage.
My post was in the context of the MMA transgender thread and articles (that was in the post I quoted).

To put it another way, female MMA fighters that don't want to fight a previously male MMA fighter, should simply refuse.

On the Olympics and other sports, in addition to the Male and Female categories, have a Transgender category and let the transgender athletes compete against one another, they can also solve the issue of who in their own category has an unfair advantage and figure out how to solve it (without making their problems the problems of people that are not transgender).
 

Aravose

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The whole point of women's sports is to give women a chance to excell and win. Because if they would compete against men, in most sports, they would lose by a long way. Allowing transgenders to compete against women is effectively destroying the whole purpose of women's sport.
 

Grant

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Why should it end here in such a binary fashion.

I would like to propose men's swimming teams are defined by penis size.
Choosing which events to watch would make life easier (for me).
 

Gyre

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The whole point of women's sports is to give women a chance to excell and win. Because if they would compete against men, in most sports, they would lose by a long way. Allowing transgenders to compete against women is effectively destroying the whole purpose of women's sport.

What defines a woman, and why are they not as good as a man?
Also, why do women in non-physical sports, like chess, F1, golf, pool, poker, online gaming, still not rank in the top 10 professional competitors?
 
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