So much for America's Religious Right

[Nick333]

So it would seem, but appearances can be decieving.

I would have to say that ALL of humanity (Christian or otherwise), especially the men, have the propensity to become "sexual perverts and predators".

Im not disputing it.

May I say to you that most perverts and predators in this world are in fact non-christian.

You may say what you like. However the fact that one third of the world s population hold christian beliefs I would have to say that your claim is dubious at best. Not just dubious but symptomatic of serious delusion.

In South Africa for example, would you say that most of the rapes that are committed there are done by rampaging Christians who go out after church on Sundays to rape and pillage the non christian population?

Yes I absolutely would. 80 % of South Africans hold christian beliefs, so ja I would think most rapes are commited by members of the christian faith in south africa.

Does this mean that christianity is responsible for producing perverts and rapists more than other religions? Not neccesarily. So what? My point is that christianity is responsible for producing a clergy with a prospensity towards molesting children and partaking in sexual practices not compatible with their own doctrine.

My actual point is that the christian right in america is willingy told what to believe, who to vote for and what they should or should not do by their leaders who time and again prove that they are not the bastions of morality that they potray themselves as.
So if it turns out that the guy who tells you drugs are bad, homosexuality is evil and that George Bush is guided by god, is actually a gay drug user, why should you then believe anything he said?

 

[IamCanadian]

My actual point is that the christian right in america is willingy told what to believe, who to vote for and what they should or should not do by their leaders who time and again prove that they are not the bastions of morality that they potray themselves as.
So if it turns out that the guy who tells you drugs are bad, homosexuality is evil and that George Bush is guided by god, is actually a gay drug user, why should you then believe anything he said?

Actually, they did not know their pastor was doing the stuff on the side. And he has been removed from office since they found out.

Just like the stupid ANC leadership who are criminals on the side and then you find out later how corrupt they really are. The difference is that you get to keep your corrupt leaders. At least the corrupt pastor is given the boot.

Which is more than can be said for that stupid Selebi and his mafia style operation.

 

[HosstheBoss]

my 2c

I have to say I'm not a fan of IamCandian (sorry but you do take digs at SA; HEY!) and I'm not exactly Christian either, but in the defence of Christians and IamCandian's statement no rapist or murderer or perv is Christian!

It is against the faith, against its laws, and any person who commits these acts has wilfully betrayed the faith.

This stands true for any man who betrays any faith.

It is the same as a person, who in strapping a bomb to themselves believes they are doing it for all of Islam. They are betrayers of their faith and have no right to call themselves Muslims

 

[IamCanadian]

I have to say I'm not a fan of IamCandian (sorry but you do take digs at SA; HEY!) and I'm not exactly Christian either, but in the defence of Christians and IamCandian's statement no rapist or murderer or perv is Christian!

Hoss,

Christians can indeed become rapists and murderers, just like anyone else on this festering planet. What I am trying to point out that no one is perfect and that each person is capable of great evil given the right circumstances.

Humans, Christian included, are born to trouble as surely as the sparks fly upwards from a fire. It's just that for the most part "TRUE" Christians are more likely to practice self control. The American pastor in question should have known better, but he fell and as a result has dragged Christs name throught the mud. For us all to stand in judgement of him is wrong because we are all capable of doing the same.

 

[HosstheBoss]

And my point is no man of morals can do such things, it goes beyond hypocrisy (the most loved label the non-religious put on "christians-gone-wrong"); it is straight forward betrayal and lies. Too many enjoy pointing the finger at people of faith who do wrong, pointing out their faith as their defining characteristic and how they have contradicted it.

For me it is not christians who are hypocrites, it hypocrites who think they are christian. These people betray the concept of what the faith is supposed to be, and if they can not assume the persona of such a faith why should they be permitted to consider themselves as part of the faith. As was spoken of these evangelical preachers earlier in the thread, they say they are of the faith, yet they are nothing more than racketeers out to sell you a book or a prayer in return for $ 99.99 and a seat at God’s right hand! These aren’t christian, these are simply fraud’s.

I don’t not follow any faith but I do believe that I have a moral code by which I live, and if I betray this code I know that I can not call myself a moral person, and I can not hold my self to be a righteous person. In the same vein I don’t see a reason why a supposed christian who betrays his faith should have the right to call himself a christian!

I realize this would go against the christian concept of forgiveness from Christ, but it is my simple view on faith, too many think a simple “I’m sorry” makes you a good person again.

This Haggard fellow will most likely be selling himself as a born again christian in the not to distant future, but do you think he really will be one? Do you think the leopard has changed his spots? He will most likely be up to his fraudulent false faith tricks, same as before!

It is difficult to articulates one’s views of religion and faith in a forum like this, so please forgive me if I make little sense

 

[Nick333]

Hoss,

Christians can indeed become rapists and murderers, just like anyone else on this festering planet. What I am trying to point out that no one is perfect and that each person is capable of great evil given the right circumstances.

Humans, Christian included, are born to trouble as surely as the sparks fly upwards from a fire. It's just that for the most part "TRUE" Christians are more likely to practice self control. The American pastor in question should have known better, but he fell and as a result has dragged Christs name throught the mud. For us all to stand in judgement of him is wrong because we are all capable of doing the same.

What the **** do you mean "TRUE" christians are more likely to practice self-control? Are you somehow implying that "true" christians have a monopoly on morality?

You also seem to misunderstand what is actually wrong with what this **** has done. Its not that he some how gave into temptation and had a lot of gay sex. Its the fact that he is gay and that not only did he deny it but he openly condemned and oppressed other gay people. Do a google on this bastard.

Your response to this is revealing of the fundamentalist mentality. We are not all capable of this sort of hypocracy. Only someone with a twisted sense of morality and self righteousness is.

 

[IamCanadian]

Nick333,


Would Christ have done what this pastor did? Christ is an example of TRUE Christian!

So you are telling me that you are incapable of being a hypocrite?

 

[simple_simon]

Nick333,


Would Christ have done what this pastor did? Christ is an example of TRUE Christian!

So you are telling me that you are incapable of being a hypocrite?

you're a frickin moron.

hello!!!! christianity is a religion, based on christ, his teaching and the way he lived his life.

christ is not a true christian....he is just christ. you continue to make most moronic statements.

your statement is the equivalent the following example:

my name is simon, i have a whole bunch of philosophies that people now follow and have created a religion from called simoninity. they refer to each other as simoninians

simon is an example of a true simoninian.

you idiot.

you got to a evangellical

 

[IamCanadian]

you're a frickin moron.

hello!!!! christianity is a religion, based on christ, his teaching and the way he lived his life.

christ is not a true christian....he is just christ. you continue to make most moronic statements.

your statement is the equivalent the following example:

my name is simon, i have a whole bunch of philosophies that people now follow and have created a religion from called simoninity. they refer to each other as simoninians

simon is an example of a true simoninian.
you idiot.

you got to a evangellical

Simon the simple,

You really do live up to your moniker don't you. You are Simple. (One definintion of simple: an ignorant or foolish person.)

Firstly, if Christ is not a Christian then I don't know who is.

Your logic is ridiculous!

It's like saying Bhudda is not a Bhuddist or that Mohammed is not a Muslim.

Why don't you think before you spew your venom because if you don't people will really think that you are a stupid and ignorant simple simon.

Secondly, in your ignorance, you failed to see that Christ is the model that people need to conform to.

The American pastor failed to conform to his role model - Christ. He was correctly removed from office.

 

[kilo39]

Actually, they did not know their pastor was doing the stuff on the side. And he has been removed from office since they found out.

Just like the stupid ANC leadership who are criminals on the side and then you find out later how corrupt they really are. The difference is that you get to keep your corrupt leaders. At least the corrupt pastor is given the boot.

Which is more than can be said for that stupid Selebi and his mafia style operation.

The difference is: we are not proclaiming the righteousness of our leaders (or making excuses for them) which you seem to be doing here.

"May I say to you that most perverts and predators in this world are in fact non-christian."

"The American pastor in question should have known better, but he fell and as a result has dragged Christs name throught the mud. For us all to stand in judgement of him is wrong because we are all capable of doing the same."

Nothing to do with Christ: a self-righteous, hypocritical scumbag who had regular phone conferences with the white house - what does this say of the rest? (All 30 million of them.) ergo: do they have similar values?

 

[Nick333]

Nick333,


Would Christ have done what this pastor did? Christ is an example of TRUE Christian!

So you are telling me that you are incapable of being a hypocrite?

How the hell would i know what a mythical person, about whom we only have anecdotal knowledge from four books (which contradict each other) written hundreds of years after his death, would or wouldnt do? How do you? Christ could have eaten babys at every meal for all we know.

Im hypothetically capable of doing anything humanly possible, but I would not do what this twisted ****arse did. I can state that with a high degree of certainty.

 

[Angelo]

Simon the simple,

You really do live up to your moniker don't you. You are Simple. (One definintion of simple: an ignorant or foolish person.)

Firstly, if Christ is not a Christian then I don't know who is.

Your logic is ridiculous!

It's like saying Bhudda is not a Bhuddist or that Mohammed is not a Muslim.

Why don't you think before you spew your venom because if you don't people will really think that you are a stupid and ignorant simple simon.

Secondly, in your ignorance, you failed to see that Christ is the model that people need to conform to.

The American pastor failed to conform to his role model - Christ. He was correctly removed from office.

I agree, Simon's analysis is ridiculous to say the least and he had the gall to use words like "idiot", the irony.

 

[kilo39]

Nick333,
Would Christ have done what this pastor did? Christ is an example of TRUE Christian!

christ is not a true christian....he is just christ. you continue to make most moronic statements.

Your logic is ridiculous!

It's like saying Bhudda is not a Bhuddist or that Mohammed is not a Muslim.

Christ is an example of a true christian?

Bwhahah. Who is the moron here?

How can Christ be "an example of true christian?"

Everything else is the example, not Christ - he is the measure (therefore cannot be "the example".)

simple_simon is correct (and fully entitled to call people of less faultless reasoning morons!)

 

[IamCanadian]

How the hell would i know what a mythical person, about whom we only have anecdotal knowledge from four books (which contradict each other) written hundreds of years after his death, would or wouldnt do? How do you? Christ could have eaten babys at every meal for all we know.

Im hypothetically capable of doing anything humanly possible, but I would not do what this twisted ****arse did. I can state that with a high degree of certainty.

Nick,

Mythical? Josephus refers to Christ in his secular historical book about the Jews of that era. One of many evidences outside of the "four books" that prove that Christ is not myth. His existence is not questioned even by some of the most hardened athiests, it's his resurrection and his claim to divinity that is. That is a whole other debate that can be found over the entire internet if one cares to get into it.

I agree that you are unlikely to do exactly what this pastor did. But he did lie, cheat, decieve, cover-up, etc etc. You and I are capable of doing the same.

 

[IamCanadian]

How can Christ be "an example of true christian?"

Everything else is the example, not Christ - he is the measure (therefore cannot be "the example".)

simple_simon is correct (and fully entitled to call people of less faultless reasoning morons!)

Christ is the role model.

He is a Christian.

Bhudda is the role model.

Bhudda is a Bhuddist.

 

[kilo39]

Nick,

Mythical? Josephus refers to Christ in his secular historical book about the Jews of that era. One of many evidences outside of the "four books" that prove that Christ is not myth. His existence is not questioned even by some of the most hardened athiests, it's his resurrection and his claim to divinity that is. That is a whole other debate that can be found over the entire internet if one cares to get into it.

I agree that you are unlikely to do exactly what this pastor did. But he did lie, cheat, decieve, cover-up, etc etc. You and I are capable of doing the same.

Speak for yourself - and no, that's not what he did (that is secondary.) He professed a set of values: anti-gay, anti-drug then was shown to be exactly the opposite (according to his church and his set of values.) Um excuse me, exactly how gullible are these people? Divine inspiration; ja, on the end of my pipe.

 

[kilo39]

Christ is the role model.

He is a Christian.

Bhudda is the role model.

Bhudda is a Bhuddist.

And you still don't get it. No - buddha is not a Buddhist - his followers are Buddhists - nothing to do with him.

We are followers of the buddha, therefore buddhists.

Buddha is not a buddhist, he IS Buddhism - all else is defined FROM him.

 

[IamCanadian]

Speak for yourself - and no, that's not what he did (that is secondary.) He professed a set of values: anti-gay, anti-drug then was shown to be exactly the opposite (according to his church and his set of values.) Um excuse me, exactly how gullible are these people? Divine inspiration; ja, on the end of my pipe.

Kilo,

What do you mean that is "not what he did"?

He did both. He lied, decieved, cheated AND was a hypocrite on top of all.

Christ hated what these "wolves with sheep clothing" were doing to people.

I am speaking for myself when I say that am capable of lying, cheating and deceiving. Are we to believe that you are now God and that you are incapable of lying and deceiving and cheating?

 

[IamCanadian]

And you still don't get it. No - buddha is not a Buddhist - his followers are Buddhists - nothing to do with him.

We are followers of the buddha, therefore buddhists.

Buddha is not a buddhist, he IS Buddhism - all else is defined FROM him.

So if I was to ask Bhudda if he was a Bhuddist, then by your reasoning he would say that he isn't.

Which begs the question: What would he say?

 

[kilo39]

Kilo,

What do you mean that is "not what he did"?

He did both. He lied, decieved, cheated AND was a hypocrite on top of all.

Christ hated what these "wolves with sheep clothing" were doing to people.

I am speaking for myself when I say that am capable of lying, cheating and deceiving. Are we to believe that you are now God and that you are incapable of lying and deceiving and cheating?

hypocrite:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

Somehow you seem to be papering over the cracks: you say he lied, cheated, and deceived but do not acknowledge his homosexuality (while heterosexually married, and gays are sinners,) and "lies, cheats, and deceived" does not cover his drug habit.

I am not incapable but am a subscriber to Taoism: The Way of Truth.