So, you get to Heaven...and you and the rest still are what you are.

Splinter

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While I might have touched on this before in other threads, it was this post in another thread that inspired me to make this thread:

"I just hope there is an afterlife so I can laugh at all the atheist/communist and yell, atheism is the opiate of the morons... MWAHAHAHA"

So, in much of the Christian faith, you can commit any evil sin under the sun (or in darkness), but will be forgiven if you "repent" and accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

Now, it seems that fear of death might make many commit to JC. But, usually, you are what you are. And although you might be "good" for a while, ultimately if you had it in you to murder, rape, rob or just be malicious, without real extraneous circumstances, how likely is it that you will remain so?

For eternity.

Take the post I quoted above. It's nothing sort of malicious and spiteful, but I am sure he/she truly believes they will get into heaven because they pray for forgiveness of their sins.

So lets postulate that they do get into heaven.

Now what? You have a heaven filled with people who did despicable acts, but were forgiven; because they repented and accepted JC as their saviour. But as time goes by, they revert to their true nature.

What happens then?
 

saor

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But as time goes by, they revert to their true nature.

What happens then?
Maybe in heaven one has the experience where every thought (I want to steal or fart in the lift) causes a person to spend some amount of time actually living the experience from the POV of the recipient of such an act. Thought (steal) --> experience of been stolen from -> Action (don't steal). Such repercussion-seeing mechanisms could be built into your heavenly mind so as to afford you the chance to act not on your impulses, but from a larger perspective of consequence and shared experience.
 
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etienne_marais

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So lets postulate that they do get into heaven.

Now what? You have a heaven filled with people who did despicable acts, but were forgiven; because they repented and accepted JC as their saviour. But as time goes by, they revert to their true nature.

What happens then?
All are born in sin and fall short of the Glory of God. You can not save yourself by being sin free (physically impossible) but by accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour who died for your sins, a free gift to be accepted or rejected. The heavenly is different from the earthly. Until resurrected the flesh is in battle with the spirit.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
The spiritual body will not be prone to the corruption of the current earthly body.
 

Splinter

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All are born in sin and fall short of the Glory of God. You can not save yourself by being sin free (physically impossible) but by accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour who died for your sins, a free gift to be accepted or rejected. The heavenly is different from the earthly. Until resurrected the flesh is in battle with the spirit.
Although we can argue about how infants are born with sin in their soul; you are forgetting the caveat that infants will not go to hell.

Remind me though - at what age does an infant become someone who is capable of going to hell based on their own actions?
 

etienne_marais

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By the way - this only talking about the "body". My post was about the person/spirit/soul who inhabits such a body.
The spiritual body encompasses all aspects, it is not subject to the current state of creation which falls under the curse but belongs to a new heaven and a new earth. The physical and metaphysical dynamics will be different and incorruptible.
 

Splinter

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The spiritual body encompasses all aspects, it is not subject to the current state of creation which falls under the curse but belongs to a new heaven and a new earth. The physical and metaphysical dynamics will be different and incorruptible.
Can you quote the bible where it says this?
 

etienne_marais

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Although we can argue about how infants are born with sin in their soul; you are forgetting the caveat that infants will not go to hell.
It may well be that some do and some don't. We are but yet touching on genetics,epigenetics and the complexity of the interrelationship between all things as hinted to in superstrings and quantum mechanics. Only God can see all the relationships and make perfect judgement and grant opportunity to repent or otherwise, including a pathway that leads to maturity (or not).

Remind me though - at what age does an infant become someone who is capable of going to hell based on their own actions?
What makes you think it works in such a linear and discreet manner, our subjective daily experience of reality is by no means a comparable yardstick to how humanity (man) as a whole and its soul are operating in that which is subject to creation and that which transcends it. There is more between heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy.
 

Splinter

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It may well be that some do and some don't. We are but yet touching on genetics,epigenetics and the complexity of the interrelationship between all things as hinted to in superstrings and quantum mechanics. Only God can see all the relationships and make perfect judgement and grant opportunity to repent or otherwise, including a pathway that leads to maturity (or not).



What makes you think it works in such a linear and discreet manner, our subjective daily experience of reality is by no means a comparable yardstick to how humanity (man) as a whole and its soul are operating in that which is subject to creation and that which transcends it. There is more between heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy.
You make me gag with your trite swapping between quoted verse and current scientific debate. Quantum mechanics being the latest crutch.

By the way - you did not answer my questions at all.
 

etienne_marais

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Can you quote the bible where it says this?
There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5)

Man is wretched, born in sin and can't be in the actual presence of God (or will die).
[https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1301.cfm / https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Death-Due-To-God~s-Presence ]

After the resurrection man will be in the presence of God (as before the fall), cleansed and that for eternity (eternal life as opposed to eternal death), if the renewed body and renewed spirit were corruptible then it would not have eternal life in the presence of God in whom there is no darkness and in whose presence darkness can not live.
 

Splinter

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There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5)

Man is wretched, born in sin and can't be in the actual presence of God (or will die).
[https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1301.cfm / https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Death-Due-To-God~s-Presence ]

After the resurrection man will be in the presence of God (as before the fall), cleansed and that for eternity (eternal life as opposed to eternal death), if the renewed body and renewed spirit were corruptible then it would not have eternal life in the presence of God in whom there is no darkness and in whose presence darkness can not live.
Umm - the part I bolded above - you, as "man" are making this up? As in it's not actually stated in the bible?

Is that not a sin? Making up words and intentions for your supreme being?
 

etienne_marais

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You make me gag with your trite swapping between quoted verse and current scientific debate. Quantum mechanics being the latest crutch.

By the way - you did not answer my questions at all.
Your question being at what age... my answer being that it does not work that way. You are working from the assumption that God can not condemn or save a soul before a certain age.
 

etienne_marais

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Umm - the part I bolded above - you, as "man" are making this up? As in it's not actually stated in the bible?

Is that not a sin? Making up words and intentions for your supreme being?
It may look that way to you, but lets break it up:

Man was in the presence of God before the fall - check
After the Resurrection man will be in the presence of God - check
Sinful man can not be in the presence of God - check
Man will have a renewed body and spirit after the Resurrection - check
Jesus died for our sins (washed clean) - check
Man will spend eternity in the presence of God - check
 

Splinter

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Your question being at what age... my answer being that it does not work that way. You are working from the assumption that God can not condemn or save a soul before a certain age.
No, I am working from your stated words that everyone is born in sin, and that is a physical impossibility to avoid.

Either qualify what you said, or admit you were wrong.
 

Splinter

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It may look that way to you, but lets break it up:

Man was in the presence of God before the fall - check
After the Resurrection man will be in the presence of God - check
Sinful man can not be in the presence of God - check
Man will have a renewed body and spirit after the Resurrection - check
Jesus died for our sins (washed clean) - check
Man will spend eternity in the presence of God - check
Umm, you are "breaking it up" in a way that suits you - check.

Two things though:

- what's with all this "man" thing. Are women not part of gods great creation?
- Jesus did not die. He was resurrected. And if he was part of the "holy trinity", how exactly did he die?
 

etienne_marais

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No, I am working from your stated words that everyone is born in sin, and that is a physical impossibility to avoid.

Either qualify what you said, or admit you were wrong.
It is a basic Christian tenant.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
-

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

etienne_marais

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Umm, you are "breaking it up" in a way that suits you - check.

Two things though:

- what's with all this "man" thing. Are women not part of gods great creation?
Yes they are, 'man' is used as the collective.

- Jesus did not die. He was resurrected. And if he was part of the "holy trinity", how exactly did he die?
Death of the body is not the end. He died and descended into hell carrying our burden of wages of sin which is death, thereby conquering death so that we can live.
 

etienne_marais

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Sorry. None off those posts support what you made up on behalf of your god.

Seems more like issues with sexuality.
Actually they do, read them again.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
 

etienne_marais

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Back to the prior/original argument that man may or may not fall back to inequity / old ways

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
We know that Jesus saved sinners (hence impure mankind), and those that accept Jesus Christ as their saviour enter heaven so verse 27 above further indicates a realm of purity.
 
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