South Africa faces a vaccine problem ahead of a possible fourth Covid-19 wave

[zolly]

Them %'s keep dropping...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450148580065374209

Oh ****. If someone edited a video with dramatic music for social media it must be true!

 

[Geoff.D]

Exactly. It's trying to artificially give you immunological memory.


Yea it's a good point. If we've all already been infected the natural antibodies and memory we have are likely as good, if not better, than those you'd get from the vaccine.

I assume it's aimed at those that haven't got it yet (after all, if the number is as high as 80% most of us probably don't know we've had it) or who have comorbidities and are more likely to die should they encounter the real thing. It's not like taking the vaccine if already having been infected is going to make you less immune. Your immunological memory is already in place and will just squash that vaccine antigen.

All that is left is for you to list all the types of vaccines in existence plus one example of each.

 

[porchrat]

All that is left is for you to list all the types of vaccines in existence plus one example of each.

LOL don't tempt me. We haven't even gotten to the fun ones like recombinants.

Dead vaccines are boring. A chimp can stick something in a molecular blender and inject it into you. It takes skill to manipulate genetic material to make something artificial resembling the pathogen and trick your immune system into reacting. That's why these mRNA vaccines are so interesting. We're tricking our own cellular factory lines into producing these antigens. Amazing stuff.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

Oh ****. If someone edited a video with dramatic music for social media it must be true!

Blistering video documents in meticulous detail how official media and public health statements gradually walked back COVID vaccine efficacy from

I don't think "walk back" means what he thinks it does.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

It's helped me realise that you're just parroting a packaged explanation in support the Covid vaccination narrative.

All you're doing is displaying your complete ignorance.
Everyone (OK, 99.99%) on myBB arguing about COVID, vaccines, how they work and how the interact with the immune system with any kind of confidence are suffering from Dunning Kruger.

Those that know a little bit, at least know that they know nothing.

Just a small glimpse about how complex the immune system is:

Now, if you don't know how the immune system works, how can argue that the CDC, or experts or anyone else is wrong?
All of us can rant on about our own "research" (lol) into the vaccine, bla bla bla, but at the end of the day all of us hold our beliefs due to emotional decisions because we don't know nearly enough to make an informed decision.

We just choose which experts to believe. The virologists, immunologists and epidemiologists working for "the establishment", or those who go against that advice. Those who go against it are largely not trained or working in any of those fields.

 

[Cius]

While I understand that the establishment can sometimes portray false evidence and toe the company line there are doctors I trust implicitly who are looking at the underlying data who have very bluntly told me if you don't take the vaccine you are an idiot. I agree with them and am vaccinated.

 

[LCBXX]

Oh ****. If someone edited a video with dramatic music for social media it must be true!

Oh dear...

 

[LCBXX]

Then you don't understand what the word "vaccine" means.

Things like the flu vaccine aren't effective forever because the virus itself mutates rapidly. Same for COVID. Delta diminished the efficacy of these vaccines. Same for Strep. pneumoniae vaccines. Serotype replacement wrecked their efficacy too. They're all still vaccines FFS. Their mechanism of action is still to invoke immunological memory.


Then you don't understand what the word "immunity" means.


It offers immunity. You just don't seem to understand what that means. Hence why I'm saying go read a textbook on the matter to better equip yourself for this discussion. Though maybe that's pointless as the textbook will tell you what I've told you and you reject that... for some reason you've yet to explain.

You don't even need to read a textbook. Just take a basic immunology course at one of these online unis like Khan. They will explain it to you. I warn you though, they're just going to tell you what you don't want to hear.

So by your reasoning, catching some sunshine, eating healthily, taking vitamin supplements, maintaining a healthy BMI and exercising also count as "vaccination" since all of the former, individually or combined, aids in strengthening one's immune system, and its response capability to foreign pathogens?

 

[LCBXX]

While I understand that the establishment can sometimes portray false evidence and toe the company line there are doctors I trust implicitly who are looking at the underlying data who have very bluntly told me if you don't take the vaccine you are an idiot. I agree with them and am vaccinated.

My question still is: what's with this obsession with getting everyone else vaccinated against Covid?

 

[Cius]

My question still is: what's with this obsession with getting everyone else vaccinated against Covid?

Ask anyone who works in the tourism sector. The faster everyone vaccinates and hence reduces the risk of death/hospitalization the faster the government ends the lockdowns. Just look at the graphs from England a few pages back. Infections are back up above 40K but the death rate is massively lower than the waves before mass vaccination. That is where we want to get to. Lots of infections, that are milder, everyone building immunity more safely due to the vaccine assistance to our immune system so that this thing can just be another one of the annual flu's that do the rounds and our economy can be fully opened again.

If 70% of the country refuses to listen its more likely to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed, lockdowns to continue, etc. This is not rocket science.

 

[LCBXX]

Ask anyone who works in the tourism sector. The faster everyone vaccinates and hence reduces the risk of death/hospitalization the faster the government ends the lockdowns. Just look at the graphs from England a few pages back. Infections are back up above 40K but the death rate is massively lower than the waves before mass vaccination. That is where we want to get to. Lots of infections, that are milder, everyone building immunity more safely due to the vaccine assistance to our immune system so that this thing can just be another one of the annual flu's that do the rounds and our economy can be fully opened again.

If 70% of the country refuses to listen its more likely to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed, lockdowns to continue, etc. This is not rocket science.

Who is this "we" you're talking about?

EDIT: of this 70% you're talking about, the majority live in what would be considered super-spreader circumstances. Daily.
They commute in public transport, queue for goods/services/healthcare and live in densely populated circumstances. Many have been working non-stop in the FMCG industries, in the face of the pandemic.
These are the same people the "experts" warned would die in the streets, should the virus reach them. This hasn't happened and is not going to happen not matter how desperately these sick fscks, wishing for it to happen so they can be vindicated, want it.

You are not going to sell getting vaccinated to these people, for their "health". Waking up early and queuing for healthcare at public hospitals is a reality for many of these people for the past 27 years; they are not frightened by this "hospitals being overwhelmed" nonsense that scared suburbia into compliance.

 

[porchrat]

So by your reasoning, catching some sunshine, eating healthily, taking vitamin supplements, maintaining a healthy BMI and exercising also count as "vaccination" since all of the former, individually or combined, aids in strengthening one's immune system, and its response capability to foreign pathogens?

No. Vaccination is the stimulation of immunological memory through exposing your immune system to antigens from a pathogen without actually exposing you to the full strength pathogen itself. None of what you've mentioned does that.

Again, you don't know what "vaccine" means.

Portions of your immune system are specific to particular antigens (molecular structures on a pathogen that invoke an immune response, your immune system doesn't respond to the whole virus, just to very small bits of molecules on that virus). The vaccine gives your immune system a safe example of that antigen so that your immune system can "train" against it by producing antibodies specific to that antigen without having to deal with the negative effects of the full strength pathogen itself.

When your immune system has figured out the appropriate response to that antigen it stores a form of "memory", so that way when you next encounter the pathogen your immune system already knows what works against it and can produce the antibodies quickly. The next infection is short-lived and dealt with without the serious symptoms that would otherwise potentially have overwhelmed your body before it could take the time to learn how to beat that pathogen from the start. This more effective and more rapid immune response is part of your "immunity".

(the only reason I say "part of your immunity" here instead of "is your immunity" is because you have other aspects of immunity that can stop a pathogen like the physical barrier of your skin; non-specific killing cells like macrophages that consume the pathogen whole and digest it and others that, while interesting, are not relevant to this discussion. For something more difficult to deal with like this COVID virus though your specific immunological responses from memory are pretty much the only thing that's going to be effective, so it pretty much is your immunity)

This is why I'm telling you the vaccine does give you immunity. Pathogens can mutate however and when they do their antigens can change their structure , or be hidden by other molecular structural change around them (antigen is hidden from your immune system because the antibodies can't reach it to react with it). Under those circumstances the antibodies created by the vaccine may not be fully effective against all variants of a pathogen. This happens all the time. It's normal. It's why for some pathogens that mutate rapidly we have to produce new versions of vaccines frequently.

 

[etienne_marais]

What gets me is that people don't want to acknowledge that the pandemic is part of a bigger picture. There is a reason why the vaccination certificate / proof of vaccination is called a Green Passport. We are facing a paradigm change where industry is targeting zero emissions. There has already been talk of Climate Lockdowns. Then there is the World Economic Forum with notable members and the Great Reset from where the term 'Build Back Better' originates from. Many politicians have used the term so clearly there is an agenda. Klaus Schwab has talked about a dose of Marxism and "you will own nothing and be happy". All in the open and real, powerful people driving the paradigm. What is of importance is that the new paradigm is promulgated by unelected people, people who know what is best for humanity without your input.

 

[Geoff.D]

Ask anyone who works in the tourism sector. The faster everyone vaccinates and hence reduces the risk of death/hospitalization the faster the government ends the lockdowns. Just look at the graphs from England a few pages back. Infections are back up above 40K but the death rate is massively lower than the waves before mass vaccination. That is where we want to get to. Lots of infections, that are milder, everyone building immunity more safely due to the vaccine assistance to our immune system so that this thing can just be another one of the annual flu's that do the rounds and our economy can be fully opened again.

If 70% of the country refuses to listen its more likely to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed, lockdowns to continue, etc. This is not rocket science.

It is also not rocket science to know that the govt could remove the LD restrictions anyway. There is nothing stopping them.

The fact that hospitals might be overwhelmed is their problem regardless and they have spent two years preparing and what do we see?

No, it is now about the govt trying to safe face and cover their arses.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

So by your reasoning, catching some sunshine, eating healthily, taking vitamin supplements, maintaining a healthy BMI and exercising also count as "vaccination" since all of the former, individually or combined, aids in strengthening one's immune system, and its response capability to foreign pathogens?

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH goeie fok!

 

[LCBXX]

No. Vaccination is the stimulation of immunological memory through exposing your immune system to antigens from a pathogen without actually exposing you to the full strength pathogen itself. None of what you've mentioned does that.

Again, you don't know what "vaccine" means.

Portions of your immune system are specific to particular antigens (molecular structures on a pathogen that invoke an immune response, your immune system doesn't respond to the whole virus, just to very small bits of molecules on that virus). The vaccine gives your immune system a safe example of that antigen so that your immune system can "train" against it by producing antibodies specific to that antigen without having to deal with the negative effects of the full strength pathogen itself.

When your immune system has figured out the appropriate response to that antigen it stores a form of "memory", so that way when you next encounter the pathogen your immune system already knows what works against it and can produce the antibodies quickly. The next infection is short-lived and dealt with without the serious symptoms that would otherwise potentially have overwhelmed your body before it could take the time to learn how to beat that pathogen from the start. This more effective and more rapid immune response is part of your "immunity".

(the only reason I say "part of your immunity" here instead of "is your immunity" is because you have other aspects of immunity that can stop a pathogen like the physical barrier of your skin; non-specific killing cells like macrophages that consume the pathogen whole and digest it and others that, while interesting, are not relevant to this discussion. For something more difficult to deal with like this COVID virus though your specific immunological responses from memory are pretty much the only thing that's going to be effective, so it pretty much is your immunity)

This is why I'm telling you the vaccine does give you immunity. Pathogens can mutate however and when they do their antigens can change their structure , or be hidden by other molecular structural change around them (antigen is hidden from your immune system because the antibodies can't reach it to react with it). Under those circumstances the antibodies created by the vaccine may not be fully effective against all variants of a pathogen. This happens all the time. It's normal. It's why for some pathogens that mutate rapidly we have to produce new versions of vaccines frequently.

So it's better to be unvaccinated, catch Covid, let your own immune system deal with the virus, and develop immunity to it?

 

[LCBXX]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH goeie fok!

Go on, rip it apart point by point.

 

[Geoff.D]

The vaccine gives your immune system a safe example of that antigen

We hope, and so do the developers. But they don't always get it right ...... And that is why trials are required.

And it is about understanding that "immunity" does NOT mean not getting infected. It is about your immune system being prepared and ready to spring into action when you do get infected.

 

[porchrat]

So it's better to be unvaccinated, catch Covid, let your own immune system deal with the virus, and develop immunity to it?

What part of "The next infection is short-lived and dealt with without the serious symptoms that would otherwise potentially have overwhelmed your body before it could take the time to learn how to beat that pathogen from the start." didn't you understand?

Basically we have COVID deaths because people's immune systems in many cases can't "deal with the virus" without that immunological memory provided by a vaccine. You don't know whether or not you're one of those people who can't "deal with the virus", and your chances of not being able to "deal with the virus" are higher than your chances of a bad reaction to the vaccine. I'd say if you take the approach you're suggesting then you're taking an unnecessary risk.

 

[LCBXX]

What part of "The next infection is short-lived and dealt with without the serious symptoms that would otherwise potentially have overwhelmed your body before it could take the time to learn how to beat that pathogen from the start." didn't you understand?

You're making assumptions in favour for the Covd vaccine over naturally gained immunity from recovering from Covid.