South Africa faces a vaccine problem ahead of a possible fourth Covid-19 wave

[porchrat]

Aided and abetted by numerous movies dating back to the "Hulk" and Dr Jekkel and Mr Hyde.

Playing around with DNA and RNA ----- don't go there you are going to turn people into lizards, you are playing God. Those sentiments are very very difficult to counter and will probably always be difficult.


And our govt and the world govts have done a terrible job of informing people.

Agreed. I've seen very little written to counter these fears. I also understand why these fears exist. It all sounds very scary.

 

[porchrat]

Fat, and consequently unhealthy, people have been packing the hospitals for decades, hogging resources that would be otherwise available for those seeking legitimate hospitalisation. Where's the outrage?

They haven't done so at a level that blocks beds for others. Hospitals are built to cater for those day-to-day normal rates of admission.

That obviously isn't the same as the scale at which this happens in this pandemic.

EDIT: Whether fat people should have to pay more for medical aid or something because of the extra strain they place on the system due to a largely self-inflicted problem is another discussion.

 

[LCBXX]

They haven't done so at a level that blocks beds for others. Hospitals are built to cater for those day-to-day normal rates of admission.

That obviously isn't the same as the scale at which this happens in this pandemic.

EDIT: Whether fat people should have to pay more for medical aid or something because of the extra strain they place on the system due to a largely self-inflicted problem is another discussion.

Bold 1: How can you possibly know this?
Bold 2: The fat ones are, by mainstream statistics, contributing to 70%+ of the current Covid hospitalisations, vaccinated or not. There's no outrage over this, yet, there's outrage over alcohol-related hospitalisations taking up space. Thoughts on this?

 

[porchrat]

Bold 1: How can you possibly know this?

How can I possibly know that fat people weren't choking hospitals before this pandemic? What?

Up until pretty recently (just before this pandemic started) I had a very sick family member. For well over a decade I spent most nights in various hospitals. There were no sick fatties lying in the halls awaiting a bed. I could always get appointments when I needed them and that family member always got a bed. Anecdotal, but probably a larger sample size than the average South African has had to experience.

Also... if the regular admittance levels for fat people into hospitals were choking those hospitals then they would simply upscale to match those normal day-to-day levels because they could make more money (wouldn't be turning away regular business).

Bold 2: The fat ones are, by mainstream statistics, contributing to 70%+ of the current Covid hospitalisations, vaccinated or not. There's no outrage over this, yet, there's outrage over alcohol-related hospitalisations taking up space. Thoughts on this?

Alcohol related hospitalizations are easily preventable overnight by the state by simply banning alcohol sales. Not so for obesity.

Obesity is a larger societal problem that will take years, if not decades to fix. If it even can be fixed at all.

You can be outraged over obesity if you want... but I'm not sure how you'd propose it be addressed practically.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

Aided and abetted by numerous movies dating back to the "Hulk" and Dr Jekkel and Mr Hyde.

Playing around with DNA and RNA ----- don't go there you are going to turn people into lizards, you are playing God. Those sentiments are very very difficult to counter and will probably always be difficult.


And our govt and the world govts have done a terrible job of informing people.

It's very easy to live in fear.
I am pro-vaccine and had both my shots as soon as I could. However, when I read an article from some legit-seeming source about some nastiness that could befall us in the long term makes me doubt my choices for a while.

 

[porchrat]

It's very easy to live in fear.
I am pro-vaccine and had both my shots as soon as I could. However, when I read an article from some legit-seeming source about some nastiness that could befall us in the long term makes me doubt my choices for a while.

The arguments for long term safety concerns don't really hold water when you start looking at the vaccine components. The ingredients in these vaccines, with the exception of the custom-built mRNA itself, are very generic compounds you find in tons of other meds people take as over-the-counter stuff every day.

The mRNA itself is short-lived. mRNA at most in eukaryotic cells has a lifespan measured in days, in most cases hours or minutes. It can't just stay in your body indefinitely. We have no genes in our DNA to produce the mRNA for these spike proteins so once it's all gone it's gone. It also can't end up incorporated into your DNA, the mRNA transcription works one-way. People see these terms, don't fully know what they mean or where they fit into cellular protein production, and they panic.

The science behind these mRNA vaccines has also existed since the 80s. It's not as new as people think.

The idea of getting long term data as a drug is used is also nothing new. We're now in 4th stage clinical trials. It's really just the monitoring stage where they gather data on long term usage. All drugs on the market sit in this stage for ages while being prescribed daily. It's not like this is some medicine still sitting in alpha testing. Further vaccines only give you that single dose. Other meds that are sitting in this stage 4 are given constantly and have a direct impact on your body (unlike vaccines that just stimulate your body's natural immune processes)... nobody squeals about those vastly more invasive medications.

Why this particular set of vaccines were singled out for this level of irrational and largely uninformed scrutiny over all the other drugs people mindlessly shove down their throats is beyond me.

EDIT: I do think the groups dealing with informing the public about this sort of stuff could have done a better job of explaining these things. I doubt most people would have bothered to listen and would have panicked anyway though. Look at how long it took to drill the basics through to @LCBXX. The man probably still doesn't accept what I'm saying, he just can't find the chink in the armour he believes is there.

 

[ShaunSA]

You can be outraged over obesity if you want... but I'm not sure how you'd propose it be addressed practically.

Six months to have a healthy BMI or get sent to a concentration camp sounds practical to me

 

[porchrat]

Six months to have a healthy BMI or get sent to a concentration camp sounds practical to me

It sounds about as Orwellian to me as mandatory vaccination.

 

[ShaunSA]

It sounds about as Orwellian to me as mandatory vaccination.

Good. If people can't take care of their health we'll take care of it for them

 

[pinball wizard]

No. Vaccination is the stimulation of immunological memory through exposing your immune system to antigens from a pathogen without actually exposing you to the full strength pathogen itself.

Sounds like homeopathy when you put it like that.

 

[porchrat]

Good. If people can't take care of their health we'll take care of it for them

Agree to disagree I suppose. It's your body, you've got a right to wreck it if you want to.

 

[porchrat]

Sounds like homeopathy when you put it like that.

Nah, vaccines aren't just water.

 

[Geoff.D]

Why this particular set of vaccines were singled out for this level of irrational and largely uninformed scrutiny over all the other drugs people mindlessly shove down their throats is beyond me.

MSM hype and over-promising which makes people suspicious and then start scratching. Most don't follow through to the end and draw a conclusion.

 

[ShaunSA]

Agree to disagree I suppose.

OK I will settle for a ban on fatties in all public spaces? Is that more reasonable?

 

[Geoff.D]

Sounds like homeopathy when you put it like that.

All medicines sit on a scale from extremely low concentrations (homoeopathy) to toxic levels (chemotherapy levels).
So what is the problem with homoeopathy? It is just the extreme point on a continuum.

 

[pinball wizard]

So what is the problem with homoeopathy?

It's fighting with chiropractic for the top spot in out and out quackery.

 

[pinball wizard]

All medicines sit on a scale from extremely low concentrations (homoeopathy) to toxic levels (chemotherapy levels).
So what is the problem with homoeopathy? It is just the extreme point on a continuum.

Ah. Your iverbromance makes sense now.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

The arguments for long term safety concerns don't really hold water when you start looking at the vaccine components. The ingredients in these vaccines, with the exception of the custom-built mRNA itself, are very generic compounds you find in tons of other meds people take as over-the-counter stuff every day.

The mRNA itself is short-lived. mRNA at most in eukaryotic cells has a lifespan measured in days, in most cases hours or minutes. It can't just stay in your body indefinitely. We have no genes in our DNA to produce the mRNA for these spike proteins so once it's all gone it's gone. It also can't end up incorporated into your DNA, the mRNA transcription works one-way. People see these terms, don't fully know what they mean or where they fit into cellular protein production, and they panic.

The science behind these mRNA vaccines has also existed since the 80s. It's not as new as people think.

The idea of getting long term data as a drug is used is also nothing new. We're now in 4th stage clinical trials. It's really just the monitoring stage where they gather data on long term usage. All drugs on the market sit in this stage for ages while being prescribed daily. It's not like this is some medicine still sitting in alpha testing. Further vaccines only give you that single dose. Other meds that are sitting in this stage 4 are given constantly and have a direct impact on your body (unlike vaccines that just stimulate your body's natural immune processes)... nobody squeals about those vastly more invasive medications.

Why this particular set of vaccines were singled out for this level of irrational and largely uninformed scrutiny over all the other drugs people mindlessly shove down their throats is beyond me.

EDIT: I do think the groups dealing with informing the public about this sort of stuff could have done a better job of explaining these things. I doubt most people would have bothered to listen and would have panicked anyway though. Look at how long it took to drill the basics through to @LCBXX. The man probably still doesn't accept what I'm saying, he just can't find the chink in the armour he believes is there.

Yeah, I know and agree.

It's just that when this Navy Dr says that after the vaccine she saw many more people with brain tumors being admitted to hospital, I by myself don't understand the workings of the vaccine and human body well enough to immediately say it's definitely BS.

I can just dismiss it out of hand and say that I only believe my preferred news sources, or I have to consider that it could possibly be true and reason why I think it is true or isn't true. And like I said, I don't know enough to refute it purely on the science.
My only way of reasoning about it is to reason about which experts are more trustworthy.

It's easy to live in fear of things you don't understand.

 

[porchrat]

All medicines sit on a scale from extremely low concentrations (homoeopathy) to toxic levels (chemotherapy levels).
So what is the problem with homoeopathy? It is just the extreme point on a continuum.

In homeopathy's defence it is therapeutic in cases of dehydration.

 

[LCBXX]

OK I will settle for a ban on fatties in all public spaces? Is that more reasonable?

A trigger for this initiative would be to first ban them from using disability parking spots and facilities. From there, let it snowball.