South Africa is losing R55 billion in taxes a year: study

rvZA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
16,763
Yup... all the countries suddenly looking for a pound of flesh from the multi-national corporations and the rich.... Bad news for TJN, ANC, Government, SARS and the likes, once the rich left the country, their money is gone too and they will no longer be taxed. Large corporations have other ways of dealing with these type of countries.... this usually does not end well for the countries looking for money....
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
49,748
As the Panama Papers and many other high profile leaks show, these rich folk are not paying their share in taxes. Its a huge scam where the middle class has to bear the tax burden.
 

rvZA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
16,763
As the Panama Papers and many other high profile leaks show, these rich folk are not paying their share in taxes. Its a huge scam where the middle class has to bear the tax burden.

The middle class reap all the rewards. They get jobs. They get salaries. They get products on shelves to buy. They can invest their salaries, buy houses, buy cars, make a living.

Fair trade-off. The alternative could be like a life for everyone in most poor countries with no economies.
 

WollieVerstege

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2016
Messages
1,900
As the Panama Papers and many other high profile leaks show, these rich folk are not paying their share in taxes. Its a huge scam where the middle class has to bear the tax burden.
How do you define "their share"?

Before I emigrated from SA I did a rough calculation. .
I looked at how much of each state expense item I consume or benefit from and allocated a portion of it to myself, things like roads, defence, foreign relations, etc.
Did not include things like health as I have a private medical aid.

In the end, even with me practicing maximum tax avoidance, I was still paying 17 times more in taxes than what I actually cost the fiscus every year.

So what should my share be? Surely if we are talking about fairness, I should pay the state as much as I actually cost the state?
 

sjm

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
1,128
How do you define "their share"?

Before I emigrated from SA I did a rough calculation. .
I looked at how much of each state expense item I consume or benefit from and allocated a portion of it to myself, things like roads, defence, foreign relations, etc.
Did not include things like health as I have a private medical aid.

In the end, even with me practicing maximum tax avoidance, I was still paying 17 times more in taxes than what I actually cost the fiscus every year.

So what should my share be? Surely if we are talking about fairness, I should pay the state as much as I actually cost the state?

There are times in your life (below working age, after retirement etc) where you will consume more in resources than you pay in, so it's not a 1:1 mapping between what you consume and what you should pay in any given year. I believe it is fair to make it a proportion of income, but it shouldn't get to the percentage levels that some countries (such as South Africa) levy on their highest earners.
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
30,961
As the Panama Papers and many other high profile leaks show, these rich folk are not paying their share in taxes. Its a huge scam where the middle class has to bear the tax burden.
The problem is that the truly rich won't have an issue with these changes, it will be well-off middle class that is considered rich in South Africa.

In regards to middle class:

Household income​

According to the 2020 EU-SILC (European Community Statistics on Income and Living Conditions), Austrian private households have a median household income of €39 549 a year. 10% of households have less than €15 735, and 10% have more than €81 771 per annum at their disposal.

Note that is yearly income and is probably a bit wrong as many super rich don't really have an income (everything is already paid off/done via company/whatever other loophole).
Contrast that with South Africa:
According to the research data, among South Africa’s adult population of approximately 35.4 million people, the average wealth held in a personal capacity is R326,000.

However, among the top 10%, this average shoots up to R2.79 million per person. This is concentrated even further in the top 1% at R17.8 million per person, and the top 0.01% at R486.2 million.

But:
To enter into the top 10%, you would need a personal wealth of only R496,000. To be a one-percenter, your personal wealth would need to be just over R3.8 million.
So to hit top 10%, your entire wealth, all you've ever earned/held, has to be 28k EUR, so basically the median income in Austria.

Contrast this with South Africa's "middle class" vs Austria median (since Austria is mostly middle class I would say):
The same dataset also includes figures for what could be considered South Africa’s middle class – the ‘middle’ 40% of adults. For this category, the average middle-class adult has a personal wealth of R138,000 – and needs only R27,700 to meet the threshold.
Or about 8000 EUR if rounded up.

So will you consider South African "upper" class as rich or use the "rich" of other places?
Since any rule you do with the truly ultra rich will not work, if you check where the money is of the super rich like Gates, Rupert, etc., it's all tied up in companies and you'd possibly crash economies if you try and liquidate that.

The panama stuff is mostly different, those are usually illegal gains, things like bribes or whatever, there you need to empower the Hawks, bring back the Scorpions (who were already supposed to be re-established based on a court judgement a decade ago as an independent body, right now it's still Hawks mandate so political interference, etc., but Cele has said nothing years later, still crazy court is not finding him in contempt of court).
 
Top