South Africa will pay R6 billion to extend COVID-19 grants

ForceFate

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In fact you should only be allowed to vote if you are not and have not taken any form of social grant. Further more, only if you are employed and have actively paid taxes for at least 10 years.

That was nice and onto the anc vote rigging and payrolled voters
Isn't that a form of aristocracy? Only those with means/resources and generational wealth/titles can make decisions.
 

Swa

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I disagree. The problem isn't who gets to vote but rather that democracy is a proven ineffective system because most people vote along societal lines and according to loyalty. Just look at America, 80% of people vote the same each term and only 20% decide the election. Besides not everyone chooses their circumstances and if you decide who should have a say those in power will keep the status quo the same to keep benefiting them.
 

ponder

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Isn't that a form of aristocracy? Only those with means/resources and generational wealth/titles can make decisions.
Possibly but voting won't rest with a few elites, closer to an oligarchy?


I'm in two minds about this. Imagine a true democracy where the will of the people rules, in places with big disparities the have-nots can make rules to take from the haves at their discretion driven by populism. This will only work well where people are educated & unemployment is low. That's why there are no true democracies in the world as it has its flaws outside of a utopian society.
 

ponder

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Besides not everyone chooses their circumstances and if you decide who should have a say those in power will keep the status quo the same to keep benefiting them.
They'll do that regardless, human nature.
 

Paul_S

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My solution is to tax the wealthy, to assist the very needy.
You may be quite happy to punish people who voted for the ANC, but for me it brings no comfort.

If you are somehow under the illusion it is only black people who voted for the ANC that are desperate for help, you should probably rethink that.
There are quite a few, right here on this forum that also need help and depend on that tiny R350 to try have end meet.
If we increase taxes the money will just be squandered or stolen and the rich will continue to emigrate. Then who's going to support this circus? How much personal income tax is enough? 50% 60% 80%?
I didn't get an increase this year and what went through my head is "at least I won't pay more tax to the ANC for them to waste".
If I was younger I'd seriously have considered emigrating.
 

Swa

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If we increase taxes the money will just be squandered or stolen and the rich will continue to emigrate. Then who's going to support this circus? How much personal income tax is enough? 50% 60% 80%?
I didn't get an increase this year and what went through my head is "at least I won't pay more tax to the ANC for them to waste".
If I was younger I'd seriously have considered emigrating.
You've just outlined the real problem, corruption, not more tax.
 
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Paul_S

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You've just outlined the real problem, corruption, not more tax.
We have less than 3 million people paying 97% of personal income tax.
Even without any state corruption tax is not the answer. It's totally unsustainable and it's only going to get worse as more tax payers emmigrate.
 

Acid0

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When I read the heading I thought there was a type.

It should Read South Africa"ns" (not South Africa) will pay to keep the grants running
 

lsheed_cn

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We have less than 3 million people paying 97% of personal income tax.
Even without any state corruption tax is not the answer. It's totally unsustainable and it's only going to get worse as more tax payers emmigrate.
Less.

You can deduct government workers, as their wages are paid from taxes.
Roughly 800,000 people pay meaningful amounts of tax.
 

KOPITE

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Have some compassion for human beings. It's very real out there and personally know family that have lost their job or reduced salary.

When you in that position it will open your eyes and see what it feels to be helpless. Government must stop worrying about bailing out SOE's and rather bail out the poor by stimulating small businesses and entrepreneurship. Instead of just handing out free money, give people an opportunity to uplift themselves and their communities.

A few simple things can make a big difference
 

Nemoneiros

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I disagree. The problem isn't who gets to vote but rather that democracy is a proven ineffective system because most people vote along societal lines and according to loyalty. Just look at America, 80% of people vote the same each term and only 20% decide the election.
Then what is the fix?
Besides not everyone chooses their circumstances and if you decide who should have a say those in power will keep the status quo the same to keep benefiting them.
My point exactly. Payrolled voters will vote without fail for the teet.
 

Nemoneiros

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That would violate the conditions you set out above.
Sure, but I'm responding to your question:

We already have a form of aristocracy where the votes are obviously influenced through emotion, hope, request and demand by social grants don't you think?

It's the perfect self-perpetuating engine to keep the power on for a select few and this why I shorthandedly replied with " Other than those being bribed/paid to make the right choices? "

Finally, what is the alternative? (I'd wager there is none going on what swa responded)
 

ForceFate

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Sure, but I'm responding to your question:

We already have a form of aristocracy where the votes are obviously influenced through emotion, hope, request and demand by social grants don't you think?

It's the perfect self-perpetuating engine to keep the power on for a select few and this why I shorthandedly replied with " Other than those being bribed/paid to make the right choices? "

Finally, what is the alternative? (I'd wager there is none going on what swa responded)
A federal system under democracy? I don't see the point of 9 provinces and district municipalities if bulk of power is centralised to the national government.
 

grok

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A federal system under democracy? I don't see the point of 9 provinces and district municipalities if bulk of power is centralised to the national government.
And yet, that is what the majority votes for time & time again..
 

ForceFate

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And yet, that is what the majority votes for time & time again..
Not really. I don't think opposition parties are doing enough to educate the general public about politics and government. Majority votes for a party they believe took them out of tyranny .
 

Nemoneiros

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Not really. I don't think opposition parties are doing enough to educate the general public about politics and government. Majority votes for a party they believe took them out of tyranny .
I just don't see this working at all. I currently see only two routes here:

1) Hostile takeover and reboot
2) Demolish the current political system and redo

Neither will happen without casualty.
 

Swa

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We have less than 3 million people paying 97% of personal income tax.
Even without any state corruption tax is not the answer. It's totally unsustainable and it's only going to get worse as more tax payers emmigrate.
And an ever increasing tax burden to fund the corruption. If you think it's to fund grants you're making a big mistake because even without them that money will just be stolen. The real issue is not the grants themselves but the conditions that lead to people needing them and also the grants that lead to bad behaviour like breeding.

Then what is the fix?My point exactly. Payrolled voters will vote without fail for the teet.
And in your example people with the jobs will keep voting in a way that ensures they keep those jobs, not necessarily including others. Either way it leads to a system that doesn't benefit society. The real problem is the representative system where people keep voting on who they are loyal to and seldom change their vote.
 
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