South Africa's brain drain - A first-hand account of emigration

Milano

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That way lies madness & frankly I hate that people encourage it.

If SA circles the drain now and goes down it...by the time it emerges the rest of the world will be full of AI and actual 4IR. The current lot of 30% pass rates can't compete now and you think post crash SA will somehow pull a resurgence out of the bag???

No...this has to happen without hitting rock bottom because SA won't recover. Not confident it'll hold it's ground as is never mind with a stint of rock bottom along the way

The most remarkable aspect of SA post-rainbow is that a segment of the population are willing to bankroll their own demise while being threatened and insulted.

It is difficult to assess whether a fast or slow demise has a superior outcome. I strongly believe the eventual result will be the same irrespective of the speed at which it is achieved. I just cannot find any evidence that suggests some miraculous recovery whether it hits rock bottom or just short of rock bottom.

Geographically there is nothing nearby to act as a catalyst for recovery after the government has implemented all its policies. Many former Soviet economies are still struggling in spite of being positioned geographically with Europe right on their doorstep. In SA there will be very limited recovery support if any at all. The SA government has among its litany of failures also chosen the wrong international partners.
 

hj007

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Geographically there is nothing nearby to act as a catalyst for recovery after the government has implemented all its policies. Many former Soviet economies are still struggling in spite of being positioned geographically with Europe right on their doorstep. In SA there will be very limited recovery support if any at all. The SA government has among its litany of failures also chosen the wrong international partners.

Although, sometimes things come out like a shot out of the blue. Like the Wits gold rush that started JHB, or the potential oil fields off the coast. But, even then, I fear we may squander it and be cursed by any such luck like Angola/Venezuela, rather than blessed like Dubai/Norway.

The macro picture looks terrible. We're just going to have to make our own individual luck, here or elsewhere.
 

Milano

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Although, sometimes things come out like a shot out of the blue. Like the Wits gold rush that started JHB, or the potential oil fields off the coast. But, even then, I fear we may squander it and be cursed by any such luck like Angola/Venezuela, rather than blessed like Dubai/Norway.

The macro picture looks terrible. We're just going to have to make our own individual luck, here or elsewhere.

Agreed. I reached that same conclusion while considering any such miracles.
 

Milano

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This has been happening pre-covid too. Remote/Freelancing from South Africa (keyword Africa) is also very difficult to find a job for considering there's a lot of people who just equates Africa with Scam. I was told very bluntly, even though I'm on the same timezone that they prefer, because I'm not somewhere in Europe, I won't qualify for the remote position.

Yes that is an important point to raise. Many adverts target those residing in the US, Europe, Aus, NZ, Canada on global freelancing platforms. They are intentionally trying to avoid India, Africa etc. Most will not entertain exceptions.
 

HavocXphere

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Yes I think the only way to see the necessary reforms is through a decline that is quick and radical enough that the current generation are motivated and compelled to democratically step in and significantly change the government almost overnight. The country still has sufficient infrastructure and human capital to carry it forward through a massive recovery if government policies can be quickly changed.
Frankly nothing about that sounds plausible to me. You're simultanously assuming that there will be radical decline yet infra and human capital will be OK? So what exactly is declining then?

Continuing the slow decline of the past 20 years I think will more likely just end in the abject and lasting multi generational failure seen in some other African nations.
You could also go for the more thorough rock bottom model like Zim. Still waiting for their resurgence....

Yes Zim is a little different, but point is society is more fragile & interwoven than it seems. Once a couple of key pillars are rattled it'll be very hard to dig yourself out again.
 

HavocXphere

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The most remarkable aspect of SA post-rainbow is that a segment of the population are willing to bankroll their own demise while being threatened and insulted.
I think that's a little dramatic. "Demise" in a big house in suburbia sounds preferable to what many saffers are encountering daily. Shacks etc.

It is difficult to assess whether a fast or slow demise has a superior outcome. I strongly believe the eventual result will be the same irrespective of the speed at which it is achieved. I just cannot find any evidence that suggests some miraculous recovery whether it hits rock bottom or just short of rock bottom.
It's not just the recovery that is in doubt, the risk profile is also just so much worse for no obvious benefit. e.g. if anything interrupts the social grants large swathes of the population survives on **** will kick off asap. Or if something rocks the faith in the ZAR. You need some sort of baseline stability - keep the lights on so to speak (hehe) - just to keep the peace.
 

Thor

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The most remarkable aspect of SA post-rainbow is that a segment of the population are willing to bankroll their own demise while being threatened and insulted.

It is difficult to assess whether a fast or slow demise has a superior outcome. I strongly believe the eventual result will be the same irrespective of the speed at which it is achieved. I just cannot find any evidence that suggests some miraculous recovery whether it hits rock bottom or just short of rock bottom.

Geographically there is nothing nearby to act as a catalyst for recovery after the government has implemented all its policies. Many former Soviet economies are still struggling in spite of being positioned geographically with Europe right on their doorstep. In SA there will be very limited recovery support if any at all. The SA government has among its litany of failures also chosen the wrong international partners.
Why the big businesses haven't done a massive Tax Revolt is beyond me.

Government is suppose to listen and if they don't they need to be drained.

So the fact that businesses are not standing up means they are complicit and shortsighted as the demise of SA will effect them too.

Even the biggest JSE businesses won't survive, but they refuse to take action.
 

Milano

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I think that's a little dramatic. "Demise" in a big house in suburbia sounds preferable to what many saffers are encountering daily. Shacks etc.

I cannot see the correlation. If I tell you to pay more tax to uplift the poor but then I keep increasing that tax, while threatening you, the poor receive even less due to corruption and the economy is being run into the ground, you still believe that your life in suburbia is secure?

It's not just the recovery that is in doubt, the risk profile is also just so much worse for no obvious benefit. e.g. if anything interrupts the social grants large swathes of the population survives on **** will kick off asap. Or if something rocks the faith in the ZAR. You need some sort of baseline stability - keep the lights on so to speak (hehe) - just to keep the peace.

Are you saying that you believe that the current policies encourage baseline stability?
 

HavocXphere

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I cannot see the correlation. If I tell you to pay more tax to uplift the poor but then I keep increasing that tax, while threatening you, the poor receive even less due to corruption and the economy is being run into the ground, you still believe that your life in suburbia is secure?
There is no correlation intended. Just pointing out that talking about demise while sitting what is practically a castle in the wider nations context is a little ironic. And I'm guessing it also sounds quite tone death to the peasants that are castle-less.

Agreed that if the wider nation/economy affects all & their security

Are you saying that you believe that the current policies encourage baseline stability?
Perhaps we understand different things under baseline stability. I mean it in the basic context for existence is still there. Open tap and drinkable water comes out. The R100 in your pocket buys a square meal. No angry mob roaming your street. Reasonable expectation that all these will still be true in 90 days time.

You need that sort of basic backdrop before you can achieve anything at all. And my point to grca was mainly that I don't think we can risk even a brief interruption in that.

As for whether the current policies achieve that - sure. The above sets the bar pretty damn low. Even the ANC fools can manage that. It's the more than that where they fail miserably.
 

Milano

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Why the big businesses haven't done a massive Tax Revolt is beyond me.

Government is suppose to listen and if they don't they need to be drained.

So the fact that businesses are not standing up means they are complicit and shortsighted as the demise of SA will effect them too.

Even the biggest JSE businesses won't survive, but they refuse to take action.

SA business is spineless. They were mostly silent during the oppression that was apartheid. They have been mostly silent during corruption and racial engineering. It does speak volumes though that they are holding large cash reserves that they have been unwilling to invest in SA for around a decade.
 

Milano

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There is no correlation intended. Just pointing out that talking about demise while sitting what is practically a castle in the wider nations context is a little ironic. And I'm guessing it also sounds quite tone death to the peasants that are castle-less.

Agreed that if the wider nation/economy affects all & their security

I cannot see the correlation. If I sit in a castle that is slowly sinking, then I am still in a sinking castle. Why would I ignore that it is sinking because it is a castle?
 

Milano

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Perhaps we understand different things under baseline stability. I mean it in the basic context for existence is still there. Open tap and drinkable water comes out. The R100 in your pocket buys a square meal. No angry mob roaming your street. Reasonable expectation that all these will still be true in 90 days time.

It is highly probable those things will be in place in 90 days. It is also probable that I have 30 to 40 years more to live, and my children even longer. The two probabilities I put forward are far more likely than your probability of holding true for 30 to 70 years. It seems a prudent consideration for where you live out those years.
 

TEXTILE GUY

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If you're referring to the post colonial revolution, I think South Africa is a bit different to other nations here. South Africa has retained or created many good qualities such as democracy, rule of law, monetary policy, a progressive constitution, educated people, undisputed borders, capital infrastructure, and of course the colonisers or their descendants. In other nations, the colonisers mostly picked up and left over night, and what remained seems to have been destroyed through social chaos, civil wars, border and/or cultural conflicts, and outside influence or exploitation. Africa is arguably a mess since post colonial rule, but South Africa has managed to avoid many of the problems, and has a ton of potential to follow a completely different path of progress and prosperity.
Its good to see people still have hope for SA.
I honestly and sincerely hope that this potential is realized, but having lived in three African countries, and watched them all descend, and now having to come abroad to find work ................. watching the "non racial" racism, the infrastructure issues, watching the crime escalation, the unemployment ...... I just dont share the same sentiment.
Having being a soldier for a lost cause, like my father before me ............. I am done with Africa.

But .........I do hope you are right.
 

Milano

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Its good to see people still have hope for SA.
I honestly and sincerely hope that this potential is realized, but having lived in three African countries, and watched them all descend, and now having to come abroad to find work ................. watching the "non racial" racism, the infrastructure issues, watching the crime escalation, the unemployment ...... I just dont share the same sentiment.
Having being a soldier for a lost cause, like my father before me ............. I am done with Africa.

But .........I do hope you are right.

The hope is odd. You can only have hope for SA if you have confidence in the ANC. The ANC understands it will rule forever. They are not being cavalier, they simply understand their electorate completely. They also understand that the policies they implement make it impossible for voters to risk having to pay for services or lose the homes for which they have no title deed if they were to vote for any other party.

* Forever is not literal. A minimum of another three generations.
 

TEXTILE GUY

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The hope is odd. You can only have hope for SA if you have confidence in the ANC. The ANC understands it will rule forever. They are not being cavalier, they simply understand their electorate completely. They also understand that the policies they implement make it impossible for voters to risk having to pay for services or lose the homes for which they have no title deed if they were to vote for any other party.

* Forever is not literal. A minimum of another three generations.

I agree with you.

Having said that, as a nation, we still want to believe things will get "better".
It will all change and somehow Wakanda .............. and out of pure politeness, I throw a "hope" into the hat.

I saw this with the Portuguese and the Rhodesians - many of whom ended up in SA and ultimately evacuated the continent.

Personally, I don't believe things will Wakanda in my lifetime, and concur - three generations before things start to get better.
 

Milano

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I agree with you.

Having said that, as a nation, we still want to believe things will get "better".
It will all change and somehow Wakanda .............. and out of pure politeness, I throw a "hope" into the hat.

I saw this with the Portuguese and the Rhodesians - many of whom ended up in SA and ultimately evacuated the continent.

Personally, I don't believe things will Wakanda in my lifetime, and concur - three generations before things start to get better.

True the Rhodesians and Portuguese are a sad reminder that it can be a basic human flaw to desperately seek hope when the evidence strongly indicates there is none on the horizon.
 

grca

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Agreed. whos to say it just wont be war and famine.
If a reform movement were to emerge, the marketing and objectives would surely have to be set out to avoid war. I don't think war is necessary, and doubt there's much appetite for it either. As far as famine goes, that's very extreme, but anyway food security has been worsening for years under the status quo, will doing nothing help?

It is difficult to assess whether a fast or slow demise has a superior outcome.
My conviction with a rapid decline probably comes from experience with financial markets. Trend reversals are generally preceded by a trend acceleration, and markets are highly influenced by human psychology. It also seems intuitive that a country's problems would be salient to more citizens in an accelerating decline, and I say this from first hand experience of the 2016-2018 decline which was personally a big factor in my own decision to take action (emigrate) after being happy well into my 30s while possessing all the means to leave very easily all of my life.

Geographically there is nothing nearby to act as a catalyst for recovery after the government has implemented all its policies. Many former Soviet economies are still struggling in spite of being positioned geographically with Europe right on their doorstep. In SA there will be very limited recovery support if any at all. The SA government has among its litany of failures also chosen the wrong international partners.
Gosh no, I actually think recovery could be swift and easy. Geography has never been less of a factor to economic success as now, and South Africa anyway has a long history of being highly self sufficient in meeting its basic needs.

I'm no economist, but I can't think of much else but local politics holding South Africa back from very effective policy shifts. It's not like we're tied to the EU limiting our level of competitive policy advantages we choose to offer to the world.

Frankly nothing about that sounds plausible to me. You're simultanously assuming that there will be radical decline yet infra and human capital will be OK? So what exactly is declining then?
To start with, civic support for government and civil obedience. These things are what need to rapidly decline to get the ball rolling. The subsequent decline would have to be measured as it unfolds. The only outcome necessary is for a targeted decline that sways just enough public opinion to turn politics toward a reformist direction that self organises thereafter.

You could also go for the more thorough rock bottom model like Zim. Still waiting for their resurgence....
An important distinction to make with Zim is that there it was the government that initiated the rapid decline upon everyone. What I envisage for South Africa is a populace (and its local, private economy) that makes intentioned and calculated moves to inflict decline upon the government, etching away at its relevance until a tipping point of a democratic replacement.

This comes back to my earlier analogy of the government being like a company, and citizens being like customers.

SA business is spineless.
Indeed. However, SA business is made up of South Africans. Ok, perhaps not all business, but hopefully my point is made.

Its good to see people still have hope for SA.
I try to separate hope from my view of SA's potential. I presently have no hope, because I see the decisions and actions being made year after year. However, I've lived in many countries, and SA's potential has become very obvious to me since. Before travelling I never understood how much potential SA has relative to many other struggling nations, and never appreciated how much has been achieved since 1652, 1934, and the 90s. My perspective now is that many South Africans are too distracted by negativity, survival, blind faith, apathy or a mix of all four, to notice how this potential is being squandered.
 

cguy

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My conviction with a rapid decline probably comes from experience with financial markets. Trend reversals are generally preceded by a trend acceleration, and markets are highly influenced by human psychology.
I hope you've made billions with this winning strategy, then. :)
 

Milano

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My conviction with a rapid decline probably comes from experience with financial markets. Trend reversals are generally preceded by a trend acceleration, and markets are highly influenced by human psychology. It also seems intuitive that a country's problems would be salient to more citizens in an accelerating decline, and I say this from first hand experience of the 2016-2018 decline which was personally a big factor in my own decision to take action (emigrate) after being happy well into my 30s while possessing all the means to leave very easily all of my life.

Market trends follow policy. Policies and political ideology do not change overnight. The quick market trend rebounds you are are referring to are not ideological in nature but rather economic.

Gosh no, I actually think recovery could be swift and easy. Geography has never been less of a factor to economic success as now, and South Africa anyway has a long history of being highly self sufficient in meeting its basic needs.

Geography is a huge factor in the same way that regional economic strength is still extremely significant. If all SA's neighbours were economic powerhouses it would offer huge spinoffs for SA. The fact that they aren't successful is not only another economic handicap but that very real instability in the Southern African region adds additional political risk over and above the genuine political risks within SA's own borders. Remains one of the primary reasons why FDI levels are never impressive. Furthermore geography is very often strongly connected to political spheres and this is a region with a poor international reputation when it comes to political decision making.

I'm no economist, but I can't think of much else but local politics holding South Africa back from very effective policy shifts. It's not like we're tied to the EU limiting our level of competitive policy advantages we choose to offer to the world.

No we are limited by far worse. How does one even consider competitive policy advantage when the country lacks sufficient electricity to even keep the lights on?

However, I've lived in many countries, and SA's potential has become very obvious to me since. Before travelling I never understood how much potential SA has relative to many other struggling nations, and never appreciated how much has been achieved since 1652, 1934, and the 90s.

Specifically which countries are you using for comparison in terms of this superior potential?
 
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