South Africa's Minister of Defence vs the US Secretary of Defense

Hamster

Resident Rodent
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
39,573
The minister is just a political figurehead, what qualifications do the DG's in that ministry actually hold?

Well even if being a four start general is not a requirement I'm pretty sure you need more than a primary school teacher for the job. Maybe an ex "head of logistics" from a grocery store would've been a more qualified pick.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937
Agreed, the US has seen more war than we have seen corruption in SA. With that kind of history your goal would be very different as to who sits in the hot seat.

Beg to differ. South Africa has seen a lot of war and the military was involved in a lot of conflicts. Even today the SANDF is involved in other countries. And don't forget that just 30 years ago the South African military was the best in Africa and regarded as one of the top 10 in the world for smaller force ability.

The SANDF is not even a shadow of its former self.
 

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,792
Edit*

It looks like DG of the department is the Secretary of Defence.
Yes something like that. Their justice department is run by their AG, fed run by Fed Chair, etc. We should do the same and save on some money. Let all of parliament make laws rather.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937
Our Minister position is an oversight one, it's not executive in its nature in terms of operational matters of the relevant department, that's why we have DGs, they are the accounting officers, they are the guys the Ministers point fingers at when something goes wrong.

The US secretary of Defence is like having a position combining the roles to varying extents of the Minister, DG and that of the Chief of the Defence force, the person in the position has executive powers for operational and administrative matters.

So, why not give the minister the executive role, get rid of the DG's? Savings all round but it means a cadre can't be appointed for loyalty due to being unqualified.

This is the problem with BEE, AA, EE and cadre deployment - The best for the job gets sidelined.
 

hj007

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
1,314
Our military did not fail us, our government did.
true. I meant people's perception of failure. This article wouldn't be getting comments if people didn't feel there was a failure. They're pointing it at gov - especially police and military - and now they're thinking it has something to do with this nonsensical comparison in this article...
 

Mila

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
54,969
So you are telling me that a Primary school teacher is head of the Military in SA.....No wonder we are in this position to begin with...
A Highschool teacher would even have been better.. we all know what terrorists 14 year olds are… or are the primary kids 14 these days?
 

TheChamp

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
41,752
So, why not give the minister the executive role, get rid of the DG's? Savings all round but it means a cadre can't be appointed for loyalty due to being unqualified.

This is the problem with BEE, AA, EE and cadre deployment - The best for the job gets sidelined.
I don't make the rules so I can't help you there, but there must be a good reason because having Ministers as political heads and civilian departmental heads is not a proudly South African phenomenon or a new thing that has never been seen before.

Personally I still see the need for Ministers and DGs as separate roles, plenty of money can be saved from not having Deputy Ministers as well as other useless positions that exists in government.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937
Do remember, education is included as part of the military curriculum. For many while at the military they pay for your studies, etc.

Correct. There is even a military degree that can be obtained at university - B.Mil. And many in the military have other degrees as well. Yet the entire military has a minister who is qualified as a primary school teacher...
 

TheChamp

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
41,752
90% of the SA Ministers. Show me any that would be employed in the private sector on merit in a similar directors position?
First go Google the word "Definition" or since you are old schooled page through the dictionary.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937
It's the DG. And just to make things even more interesting we also have a Secretary for Defence, which is nothing like their Secretary of Defence.

Yes. We have far too many people in the hierarchy. The result of a small country with the biggest cabinet and civil service in the world because of jobs for the loyal cadres...
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937

Mista_Mobsta

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
2,440
The two positions may not be exactly similar, but it is indicative of a problem. We put people into these positions who have zero actual experience in the spheres they are now responsible for directing policy and such over.

We also have a fundamental problem with Ministers not understanding the boundaries of their role. The Don is a primary example of this actually.
Do you know what our BIGGEST problem is? Certain ministers should KNOW they are utterly incapable of dutifully fulfilling various positions and yet they accept the positions with open arms and open bank accounts. That is our biggest issue in government at the moment. People should not accept positions they are utterly incapable and unqualified of fulfilling.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
16,937
Our military did not fail us, our government did.

The military failed their Commander in Chief. They have an independent Military Intelligence branch who should have independently assessed the threat level in KZN and Gauteng. Thus their reports to their Chief of the SANDF never reached him and he has a direct line to the President. Or else he failed to correctly assess the threat level and report to the president while actioning readiness and deployment plans. The military failed.
 

wingnut771

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
14,978
Do you know what our BIGGEST problem is? Certain ministers should KNOW they are utterly incapable of dutifully fulfilling various positions and yet they accept the positions with open arms and open bank accounts. That is our biggest issue in government at the moment. People should not accept positions they are utterly incapable and unqualified of fulfilling.
Thanks to Dunning-Kruger effect, they believe they are capable.
1626947675795.png
 

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,792
The military failed their Commander in Chief. They have an independent Military Intelligence branch who should have independently assessed the threat level in KZN and Gauteng. Thus their reports to their Chief of the SANDF never reached him and he has a direct line to the President. Or else he failed to correctly assess the threat level and report to the president while actioning readiness and deployment plans. The military failed.
Military intelligence assesses domestic threats as well? That doesn't sound right. That sounds like the job of crime and the domestic arm of the SSA. Both useless but still their job.
 
Top