South Africa's Solution To Global Warming - Go Nuclear!

UnUnOctium

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In this country, they should be looking at hydro and solar, but mainly solar. Nuclear should be a temporary, interim solution while the thousands of square kilometers of the arid, sunny Northern Cape are developed to host solar power stations.
 

Palimino

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There's a lot of research coming out that leans towards them pushing up food prices because now there's a lot more competition as farmers move over to providing biofuels rather than normal crops. Also, they trend up and down with food prices and the amount of land you require is huuuuge (more habitat destruction in the quest for farmland anyone?).

You will find that ‘research’ is funded by the fossil fuel advocates. Their favourite complaint is that the food supply is compromised by bio fuel. Rubbish! Bio fuel crops (non-edible, greater fuel yield is the crop selection criteria [not the piss-poor food crop yield]) are grown on marginal land with few standards (not like food crops). They can be genetically engineered as well for better fuel yields (they are not food). Habitat destruction? What about algae bio fuel? Plenty of sea.
 

shogun

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You will find that ‘research’ is funded by the fossil fuel advocates. Their favourite complaint is that the food supply is compromised by bio fuel. Rubbish! Bio fuel crops (non-edible, greater fuel yield is the crop selection criteria [not the piss-poor food crop yield]) are grown on marginal land with few standards (not like food crops). They can be genetically engineered as well for better fuel yields (they are not food). Habitat destruction? What about algae bio fuel? Plenty of sea.

Algae bio fuels... I have great affection for (and forgot about when writing my comment):p Quite a science involved there where they feed the algae by atomizing the nutrients so that they keep the water still for maximum yield. When it comes to traditional bio fuels tho... I have no time for that (corn based etc). And I don't buy the fossil fuel advocates argument... i'm certainly no fossil fuel advocate. It's a pity that when ever research comes out that might show some flaws in something... it's always the "bad people" / "proponents of the current way" that get blamed. It must be the oil companies behind the failure of the electric car. They must be behind the negative research on bio fuels. They must be behind blah blah blah. Really...

As for the marginal land argument... sure. But how many sq km are required when you talk land crops? Marginal for what? Marginal for human crop production perhaps, but don't say marginal for animal habitat. Just take how much land has been cleared for palm oil for restaurants. HUGE FORESTS cleared in Indonesia. And that's mostly for food. Take the small % of bio fuels produced as a total of fossil fuels... then figure that palm oil is starting to be used as a bio fuel. If they start upping production of palm oil to replace fossil fuels altogether, you would get catastrophic land clearing taking place (it's already catastrophic).

"Total area for Indonesia palm oil in 2006 is estimated at 6.07 million hectares according to a information from the Indonesia Palm Oil Board (IPOB)." - http://www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/highlights/2007/12/Indonesia_palmoil/
That's 6.07 million hectares (growing at roughly 10%/year - from article) of forest destroyed for chips and hamburgers... imagine what they'll do for cars.

And that's just palm oil. What about other crops?

As far as i'm concerned, crude oil is completely wasted when burned, and has a far greater use in chemical production. Bio fuels tho? If they go the algae route, then i'd be ok with it... if they go the land route... I won't be impressed.

EDIT: [Disclaimer - All links and information are from my own research / reading / searching / opinions, I do not work for an oil company, and as far as I am aware, am not funded by an oil company - but you wouldn't believe some random guy on the internet anyway now would you? :p]
 
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scotty777

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That’s not in dispute. The employment issue is a biggie (and will remain with us) and nuclear (forget about the other disadvantages) won’t address mass, low skilled employment. Biofuels will.



Don’t know about ‘stable weather’ with climate change on the go. Wait and see? The ‘hot sun’ is a possibility (although there are disadvantages). However, you are assuming static power stations and electric vehicles (not to mention the horrendous costs that the poor, sodding, overburdened taxpayer will be expected to bear). There is no infrastructure for electric vehicles and the consumer can’t afford one. They already have cars (internal combustion engine).

Hmmm, I'm not sure that biofuels in their current form are really all that viable. Seeing as you need to produce so much to run even a small country like South Africa, and it will effect food production. If you were a farmer, would you want to farm food and make an average salary, or would you want to farm biofuels and get massive salary (seeing as there's such high yields for biofuels...).

Also, I don't think anyone here is saying Rome was built in a day... We aren't jumping up and down screaming that electric cars are the way of the future. Rather, we suggesting that there are better ways to get electricity, and solar is a great model for South Africa because of our stable weather and hot sun. It doesn't rain too often along the west coast of South Africa, and there's seldom cloud cover... Given the intensity of the sunlight, it seems pretty ideal to me, what do you think?

Furthermore, electric cars will slowly start creeping into everyday life, and yes, the rich will be the first to use them, but it happened this way with petrol driven cars too... Electric powered buses could also start filtering through so it's obvious that you will get a slow adopting of electricity, but more importantly, we now have a proper renewable source of power.

Yes, jobs will be effected, and biofuels do carry that little argument. I'll give that point to you.
 

Palimino

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Algae bio fuels... I have great affection for (and forgot about when writing my comment):p Quite a science involved there where they feed the algae by atomizing the nutrients so that they keep the water still for maximum yield.

View my blog (on this site) ‘South Africa: Alternative fuels’.

Excuse the post length, but an adequate response does not lend itself to glib one liners. Edited from previous posts.

Fuel from algae shows promise. Easy to grow. Cultivating algae does not appear difficult. I arrived at this conclusion independent of outside ‘authorities’. Algal blooms had been detected in the waters round about Florida? Warm, coastal and with shallow topsoil (run-off into **salt water** [plenty of that])? My reasoning for this phenomenon goes thus:

Florida = desired destination for aged American’s in their ‘twilight years’ = death statistics are above normal as the oldies go to their ‘just reward’ = complaints by grave diggers that they cannot easily dig the graves deep enough to meet health regulations before hitting clay or other water impermeable layers (I believe cremation is becoming popular). The depth of the typical grave is dug in ‘shallow’ topsoil (geologically speaking).

This implies a high water table. This hypothesis is supported by the alligator infested, swampy / marshy ‘Everglades’ area. This hypothesis is further supported by when e-TV used to run a program every Saturday at 18:05 - 'Seconds from Disaster'. This is a forensic reconstruction of events leading up to major disasters. On the 6/9/2008 they detailed the disaster of an American airliner which crashed in the Everglades. They made the point that the airliner destruction was so complete because it hit the limestone bedrock under the Everglades swamp surface.

So, phosphate-rich water (from fertilisers) drains into the closest river washed there by rain and irrigation. The river flows into a coastal lagoon. The lagoon opens-up periodically to the sea. My geography gets a bit shaky here. The ‘sea’ is the Gulf of Mexico. The Gulf has warm waters and is not particularly rough (there is little dilution). So when the lagoons open-up to the sea, it provides good conditions for algal growth (nutrients & warm water = algal blooms).

Thus fuel can be derived from algae. There is plenty of salt water – areas of the sea can be ‘fenced’ with those booms used to contain oil slicks (a positive contribution of oil pollution). The tons of algae can be harvested for fuel. This is in addition to other alternative sources.

This form of biofuel does not require a massive skills base. It’s easy. It’s a fermentation process (pretty simple if a Tennessee hillbilly can make moonshine). Alcohol (or something very similar) is the fuel. The ‘proof’ (strength of the alcohol) will be much greater than commercially available drinks. The greatest ‘poison’ is the fuel itself for those wanting to give their morning orange juice an extra zing (they will die from alcohol poisoning). The way to get around this, is to include an additive that makes the fuel taste truly vile.

Feeding
Chicken poop (free?) provides the phosphate component on which algae thrives. The extent of the algae ‘farms’ requires a strategy for distributing chicken poop. I suggest micro-light aircraft fitted with ‘mini-ag’ systems (similar to a crop duster plane). The plane flies over the algae area ‘spraying’ the feedstuff. Flying a micro-light aircraft for this purpose is not difficult – about a weeks training (I have flown them for years). Part of the staff job description.

Gene modification
Algae production can be enhanced by gene modification. Cue Monsanto. It is not human foodstuff, so the usual genetically modified scare tactics are irrelevant. A big argument of the anti crowd is the contamination of neighbouring fields with regular crops. This won’t occur with algae. Monsanto – genetically engineered fuel (see Farmers Weekly). The nearest to a virtually closed system likely to be encountered. Gene modification of algae holds promise. This would also give researchers the opportunity to fiddle with closed system ecologies. This would have spin-offs for long-term space flight (for e.g. it would dwarf the Arizona-based biosphere project).

Fuel & employment
Fuel plants are different from food plants (more fuel yield). The plants are suitable for small-scale farming on crappy land with no quality control. Just plant them and harvest them in time for pick-up.

Picture it. A railway spur (implying a working rail network) is laid-down at major nodes. A bio-diesel locomotive sponsored by SASOL (your friendly alternative fuel giant – building a better nation [gag]) leaves trucks on the spur for about a week (a residential carriage as well for officials) to collect fuel plant matter from myriads of subsistence farmers (traditional employment). They also tow around, with bio-diesel powered tractors, trailers to collect the harvest of farmers who cannot get to the rail node. Payment is by cheque - no carrying of cash so that they or the farmers are not targets for criminal attack. Cheque validation is by the farmer’s thumbprint (illiteracy is addressed). The banks in nearby centres have the biometric apparatus necessary to cash cheques and have been instructed to treat a severed thumb, dripping blood with deep suspicion. The banking industry also wins – all these farmers with bank accounts.

As for the marginal land argument... sure. But how many sq km are required when you talk land crops? Marginal for what?

Regarding this aspect, your argument would have been much stronger if you had harped on SA’s lack of irrigation water – because that is a problem, which I hope seawater algae along the coasts will solve.

scotty777
If you were a farmer, would you want to farm food and make an average salary, or would you want to farm biofuels and get massive salary (seeing as there's such high yields for biofuels...).

N/A. Market forces determine what gets grown. If food crops are worth more, the farmer grows food crops – this would happen if everyone grew fuel crops. The bottom would fall-out the market.

Also, I don't think anyone here is saying Rome was built in a day... We aren't jumping up and down screaming that electric cars are the way of the future.

Biofuels simply give more options. It does not penalise electric cars. It just allows them to be introduced gradually (new cars?). There will be a period when biofuel powered cars and electric cars run concurrently.

Viva! Biofuels. Viva!
 

Archer

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Nuclear plants are neither cheap to build nor to maintain, even if the cost of the electricity produced appears lower when taken without all the other considerations associated with nuclear generators. The problem of what to do with the waste has yet to be solved; as is the problem of what to do with ageing plants that become too dangerous or costly to keep running. Once closed, the site can't be used for anything else. Its an expensive ruin.

Wrong. A properly decommissioned nuclear power station leaves very little radioactivity in the area and is safe to visit and could be reused, for example:
Immediate Dismantling (or Early Site Release/Decon in the US): This option allows for the facility to be removed from regulatory control relatively soon after shutdown or termination of regulated activities. Usually, the final dismantling or decontamination activities begin within a few months or years, depending on the facility. Following removal from regulatory control, the site is then available for re-use.

But yeah, Nuclear power isn't refined enough atm, so I think it's more of an interlude power solution than anything else. It's cleaner than coal, but when things go wrong lots of people will be effected negatively (death... cancer... and these effects will stuff around with people for generations to come!).

Coal power kills more people per MW per year than nuclear power. And thats with the coal power plant running 100% as intended. Nevermind all the respiratory diseases people suffer from when living too close to a coal power station. During normal operation nuclear is far safer for the surrounding environment and people than coal is.
 

Palimino

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During normal operation nuclear is far safer for the surrounding environment and people than coal is.

Assuming (of course) skilled and competent operators together with a safe method of disposing of nuclear waste. The well-oiled machine of SA with our surplus of nuclear workers is an obvious choice.
 

Nerfherder

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Why? You can’t just make an arbitrary claim without some justification.

“Rabbit droppings are definitely the way to go.”

Educated people would have understood that comment perfectly.

It appears you did not...

Nuclear is definitely the way to go, Biofuels will be great for cars but nuclear will be the best for electricity generation.
 

Nerfherder

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You think people would learn from Chernobyl...

Well they did.... basically there is a 1 in 100 000 000 chances of happening and it hasn't happened on that scale since.

Every day our lungs are polluted by coal burning.... that seems to be a lesson we haven't learnt.
 

Tpex

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Well they did.... basically there is a 1 in 100 000 000 chances of happening and it hasn't happened on that scale since.

Every day our lungs are polluted by coal burning.... that seems to be a lesson we haven't learnt.
obviously people haven't, because we have the government wanting to build more... when all the qualified people are overseas... what are they going to call it this time?

I live in a city, coal smoke is the least of my worries.
 

murraybiscuit

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i'm still thinking of starting a company which sends rockets with nuclear waste payloads into outer space...
my ship comes by, picks it up and the rocket launches from somewhere in the middle of the pacific.
 

Tpex

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i'm still thinking of starting a company which sends rockets with nuclear waste payloads into outer space...
my ship comes by, picks it up and the rocket launches from somewhere in the middle of the pacific.

A) it will still be cheaper to dump it in some poor 3rd world country.
B) there is already enough trash up there, the last thing you want is for somebody to crash into nuclear waste in space....
 

Archer

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twas caused by poorly trained personal.... we have... Ek'sdom (Eskom)

Wrong wrong wrong. Also, I assume you meant personnel, not personal.
There were two official explanations of the accident: the first, subsequently acknowledged as erroneous, was published in August 1986 and effectively placed the blame on the power plant operators.
The real reason:
The poor quality of operating procedures and instructions, and their conflicting character, put a heavy burden on the operating crew, including the Chief Engineer. “The accident can be said to have flowed from a deficient safety culture, not only at the Chernobyl plant, but throughout the Soviet design, operating and regulatory organizations for nuclear power that existed at that time.”
Operating procedures for nuclear power plants are now very well documented and much easier to follow
 

Ockie

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A) it will still be cheaper to dump it in some poor 3rd world country.
B) there is already enough trash up there, the last thing you want is for somebody to crash into nuclear waste in space....

Thorium bases Nuclear Power Plants can burn up plutonium waste and in the process produces less than 1% of what normal uranium powered reactors would generate. :)
 
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