Southern Kings confirmed in Vodacom Super Rugby

Devill

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How did Australia justify adding the ACT Brumbies, Western Force or Melbourne Rebels? Those regions didn't have any domestic rugby at all.

When they setup a team it actually works and their political backing as well as the "sport side" works towards the same goals....

It is also not the same as in SA. SA Rugby will be forced to kick an already existing team out to make space for a SUB PAR team.

Yes the Southern Kings lost, and they likely could have to even with the best team. However, the lack of EP players may have had a little to do with the large score.

I agree but the fact is that if they can not afford to "lose" eight or so of their top players in a season they will be murdered in the Super series where injuries to a team ctches up to even the "big" teams like the crusaders and blues, not to mention the Stormers or Bulls....
 

cr@zydude

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When they setup a team it actually works and their political backing as well as the "sport side" works towards the same goals....

It is also not the same as in SA. SA Rugby will be forced to kick an already existing team out to make space for a SUB PAR team.



I agree but the fact is that if they can not afford to "lose" eight or so of their top players in a season they will be murdered in the Super series where injuries to a team ctches up to even the "big" teams like the crusaders and blues, not to mention the Stormers or Bulls....

No one at the Southern Kings want to kick a team out, they simply want to play Super Rugby. As for Aus, I think it's overly simple to say that they can make it work and SA can't.

I agree that the Southern Kings will need a massive player overhaul to be competitive, but SUper Rugby will attract players to the team. Also, even if they lose all their matches and finish last, it would be no worse than a new team has done, or existing SA teams.
 

Refraction

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Don't you think there would be an influx of players to the Kings from the "ousted" side which would "stregthen" the team to a lot better than what they are now, Just a thought...
 

Devill

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No one at the Southern Kings want to kick a team out, they simply want to play Super Rugby. As for Aus, I think it's overly simple to say that they can make it work and SA can't.

I agree that the Southern Kings will need a massive player overhaul to be competitive, but SUper Rugby will attract players to the team. Also, even if they lose all their matches and finish last, it would be no worse than a new team has done, or existing SA teams.

But at the expense of another team.... that is my problem with this.... If you support this you support kwotas in sport as well as the logic is the same.

I have no problem IF the Kings play the "worste" team in SA (best out of 3) and if they win and are then included in the S15.

I would also not mind there being 6 SA teams in a super 16 but that is not going to happen as SANZAR has sold the 5 year rights for this format.....
 

cr@zydude

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But at the expense of another team.... that is my problem with this.... If you support this you support kwotas in sport as well as the logic is the same.

I have no problem IF the Kings play the "worste" team in SA (best out of 3) and if they win and are then included in the S15.

I would also not mind there being 6 SA teams in a super 16 but that is not going to happen as SANZAR has sold the 5 year rights for this format.....

Not sure how you draw that conclusion.

As for a team being relegated without a play off, that's how it works in most league systems in the world. The Championship winner doesn't have to play off against the 20th team in the Premier League for promotion.
 

Devill

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Forcing someone out of a team and not replacing him /her with a better player, because of political motivation....

Forcing a team out of a comp and not replacing it with a better team, because of political motivation....

Still not seeing it?

Ps so what comp has the Kings won? If they can win the CC then I might agree but they have not won anything.
 

cr@zydude

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Forcing someone out of a team and not replacing him /her with a better player, because of political motivation....

Forcing a team out of a comp and not replacing it with a better team, because of political motivation....

Still not seeing it?

Ps so what comp has the Kings won? If they can win the CC then I might agree but they have not won anything.

I'm saying that promotion/relegation matches are not the only way. If Super Rugby and the Currie Cup worked only on a union and qualification basis, I'd be all for EP qualifying for Super Rugby.

But that can't be done, the ONLY way into Super Rugby is by being given a licence to play.
 

Devill

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I'm saying that promotion/relegation matches are not the only way. If Super Rugby and the Currie Cup worked only on a union and qualification basis, I'd be all for EP qualifying for Super Rugby.

But that can't be done, the ONLY way into Super Rugby is by being given a licence to play.

Again: At the cost of someone more deserving.

Until they can give us a reason WHY they should play instead of one of the other 5 unions, it is as good as the kwota system imo.
 

cr@zydude

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Again: At the cost of someone more deserving.

Until they can give us a reason WHY they should play instead of one of the other 5 unions, it is as good as the kwota system imo.

And I'm saying that Championship clubs don't need to prove that they are better than a Premier League club to get promoted. Ideally we should have a proper promotion system, but we don't.
 

GreGorGy

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...the ONLY way into Super Rugby is by being given a licence to play.

This has made me think. So, if the S15 format has been contractually sold to whoever, it is based on 15 teams and a reasonable expectation of performance. If I bought those rights to broadcast, for example, I'd be pretty irritated at the substitution of one team for another.

I think SARU may well have egg all over their faces in this one - you can see it has not been thought through properly and announcements were very premature.
 

MickeyD

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Could hardly do worse...

2008: Lions win 2 out of 13 games
2009: Lions win 4 out of 13 games
2010: Lions win 0 out of 13 games
2011: Lions win 3 out of 18 games

That's 9 wins out of 57 games.
 

GreGorGy

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Could hardly do worse...

...

That's 9 wins out of 57 games.

8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 and 0 wins are all worse.

Bob of the Lawn Service fame suggested that the Cheetahs (with I think 13 wins for the same period) be dropped. But, for the last 4 years, the Lions have been the reliable losers, ending last or second last. Would SARU have the balls to dump these bottom-feeders? I doubt it - and I expect a good season from them. I also believe that a building process can take time and that maybe the Lions have done the basics and now, time is going to favour them. Or should we let the Kings go for it for four years too and let them also reach a staggering 9 wins before we ditch them for the in-favour team of the day?

I dunno - as usual this thing has not been analysed properly.
 

Devill

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I say if the kings can end in the top 3 of the CC then have them play the lowest ranking SA team for next years Super series ....

Agree 100% on the fact that it was not analyzed properly.
 

SukkaFoo

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I firmly believe in promotion / relegation without a playoff. Granted, one can argue that if the kings can't beat the lions, then they don't deserve to be promoted, but there is no way that any springboks will play for a side that isn't competing in super rugby at a minimum, so the chips are always going to be massively stacked against them. The lions have been TERRIBLE for years in super rugby, so why is it to say they deserve their place, basically by default. If it was the cheetahs that were the perennial wooden spooners, they would drop, bloem doesn't have the pull that Jhb does. Basically, unless they are forced in, there is no realistic chance the kings well be allowed into super rugby. Interesting times...

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Devill

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I firmly believe in promotion / relegation without a playoff. Granted, one can argue that if the kings can't beat the lions, then they don't deserve to be promoted, but there is no way that any springboks will play for a side that isn't competing in super rugby at a minimum, so the chips are always going to be massively stacked against them. The lions have been TERRIBLE for years in super rugby, so why is it to say they deserve their place, basically by default. If it was the cheetahs that were the perennial wooden spooners, they would drop, bloem doesn't have the pull that Jhb does. Basically, unless they are forced in, there is no realistic chance the kings well be allowed into super rugby. Interesting times...

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But they need to win something first.... I won't even bet on them winning the Vodacom cup.
 

GreGorGy

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I firmly believe in promotion / relegation without a playoff. Granted, one can argue that if the kings can't beat the lions, then they don't deserve to be promoted, ...

Take a hypothetical situation (possible none the less) where the 5 South African teams finish in the top 8 of the Super15 - ie, all better than half the field. Your assertion suggests that even the worst of those five (say, they finished 8th) should be dropped in favour of a team that will most likely finish rock bottom.

I am far from against these Kings playing in the S15 but I remain convinced that a proper system that shows neither favour nor prejudice must be worked out. What is to say that Boland (feeding into Stormers I think) or Griquas (currently feeding into Cheetahs) should not be shown favour over the Kings? Why are the Kings suddenly guaranteed a place? What have they done to deserve this? Boland is a better team and so too is Griquas. I understand that maybe that particular area needs to benefit from development and such participation would be a great component of said development. But besides that - what is the underlying reason that they (the Kings) are shown such favour?
 

Bizkit87

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well, at least we'll now have 2 easy pics for Superbru on a weekend

Spears to lose by XX
Lions to lose XX

Done.
 

SukkaFoo

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Take a hypothetical situation (possible none the less) where the 5 South African teams finish in the top 8 of the Super15 - ie, all better than half the field. Your assertion suggests that even the worst of those five (say, they finished 8th) should be dropped in favour of a team that will most likely finish rock bottom.

I am far from against these Kings playing in the S15 but I remain convinced that a proper system that shows neither favour nor prejudice must be worked out. What is to say that Boland (feeding into Stormers I think) or Griquas (currently feeding into Cheetahs) should not be shown favour over the Kings? Why are the Kings suddenly guaranteed a place? What have they done to deserve this? Boland is a better team and so too is Griquas. I understand that maybe that particular area needs to benefit from development and such participation would be a great component of said development. But besides that - what is the underlying reason that they (the Kings) are shown such favour?

Point taken. Though it is a HIGHLY unlikely point. If I turn that around to the more likely scenario, and the lions (if they don't go insolvent first) end up last again, then what? Yes they have better players, so they will win a playoff, but do they deserve to carry the wooden spoon year in and year out?

I have to be honest in saying, the kings have themselves to blame as well. Two seasons ago they should have been promoted, but they choked in the second round of the playoffs. Last season SARU moved the goal posts and there were no playoffs tho.

Personally I think they will get obliterated in super 15, but then again, what have the lions done to deserve their place?

Finally, re why EP deserve a team over the other small unions, Hmm, not really enough of a reason I suppose, but they have decent infrastructure and will probably get decent crowds into the stadium, at least for the first season or so.

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APoc184

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Apart from a player here and an administrator there I like the Kings or I should rather say I like Eastern Cape rugby.

Unfortunately SARU is going about this the wrong way. It is 8 days before the kick-off of the 2012 tournament and none of the SA teams even know if they will be playing in the 2013 tournament or not. Will there be relegation matches? Will the lowest team be dropped? Will two teams be merged? Will the Lions go bankrupt and be ousted? Can SARU pull a rabbit out of the hat and make it a 16 team tournament? So many unanswered questions. And SARU is keeping quiet.

Everybody here knows that I am a massive Cheetahs supporter. And other Cheetahs supporters are always going on about the fact that we can never keep the momentum going because the other unions poach our players. And if all players return to their original provinces that the Cheetahs would be unbeatable. I disagree because if that happens the Eastern Cape would be the powerhouse of South African rugby.

So many players leave the region because they want to play with the big boys. Unfortunately it happens while most players are still in primary or secondary school and they get scouted by Grey College and other big schools. I can't blame the players but I also can't blame the EC for trying to put measure and structures in place to keep their home grown talent. If those structures include pushing for a SuperRugby spot, so be it.

Two very recent examples of players leaving the EC to go and play for Grey College are future Bok stars Johan Goosen and Jan Serfontein(father played for EP - Boela Serfontein). They were both born and raised in the Eastern Cape and were lured to Grey College in Grade 8.

But like I said. SARU is going about this completely the wrong way and I can't see this ending without a team dragging SARU to court. Whether it will be the Lions or Cheetahs for being dropped or the Kings for not getting their spot as promised. Teams have also signed players/coaches/sponsorships/etc based on the fact that they will be competing in SuperRugby until at least 2015.

This will not end pretty and either way SARU will be left with egg on their face.

I hope my Cheetahs survive but I support the fact that the region are pushing for inclusion.
 
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