State capture inquiry begins

TheChamp

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Why do you feel it's a good idea for them to be included?
Any party that is represented in parliament has all the right to take part in parliamentary activities, so it is not really a question of me thinking its a good or a bad idea, it's more a question of people wanting to bend and change the rules as they go along, depending on how convenient or inconvenient the rules are.
 
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Priapus

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Any party that is represented in parliament has all the right to take part in parliamentary activities, so it is not really a question of me thinking its a good or a bad idea, it's more a question of people wanting to bend and change the rules as they go along, depending on how convenient or inconvenient the rules are.
That's a fair point.
 

Fulcrum29

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The part about the ANC being excluded from state capture committees?

I am in the view that the President must remain mandated to submitting an implementation plan. I don’t support another commission being established, but clearly, there is uncertainty amongst the parties, so be it. The question is who elects the commission, and how will the commission be made up? Ramaphosa is the executive, his implementation plan could be supplementary.

In reality, it is the NPA who needs to have an action plan, and now they need (?) to wait on an ethics committee? They should proceed, and the state and its party representatives would need to act accordingly. The last thing I want to see is a collision with state interests.

Everything which state or remotely state related is a delay.
 

TheChamp

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I am in the view that the President must remain mandated to submitting an implementation plan. I don’t support another commission being established, but clearly, there is uncertainty amongst the parties, so be it. The question is who elects the commission, and how will the commission be made up? Ramaphosa is the executive, his implementation plan could be supplementary.

In reality, it is the NPA who needs to have an action plan, and now they need (?) to wait on an ethics committee? They should proceed, and the state and its party representatives would need to act accordingly. The last thing I want to see is a collision with state interests.

Everything which state or remotely state related is a delay.
To be fair I don't think the NPA said anything about waiting for anyone, as far as I am concerned they are busy doing their job regardless of what parliament and government is doing.

I think for parliament it should be way more than ethics, because we know they are not going to find anything there, it should mostly be about coming out with ways and ultimately laws that should prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

Problem is our parliamentarians are still at the politicking stages, I would expect by now individual parties to be publishing their plans an suggestions for the nation to peruse and discuss, at least that would show some seriousness, but for now it just look like they are looking forward to their parliament games and nothing else.
 

PrimeSteak

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The part about the ANC being excluded from state capture committees?
Since the ANC as a party is implicated in Zondo? And it's mostly their officials that are implicated?

Wouldn't make sense to give the accused state capturers the power to decide their own punishments and to decide how to prevent themselves from committing such actions again? Since we all know how that would turn out...
 

TheChamp

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Since the ANC as a party is implicated in Zondo? And it's mostly their officials that are implicated?

Wouldn't make sense to give the accused state capturers the power to decide their own punishments and to decide how to prevent themselves from committing such actions again? Since we all know how that would turn out...
The ANC as a party will not be involved in parliamentary proceedings, the MPs of the National Assembly would be. The National Assembly, means exactly that, the National Assembly, you are going to run into plenty contradictions if you start looking at things from a party perspective.

There's a good reason they call each other Honorable Member and not ANC, EFF, DA etc member. If the opposition parties have lost confidence in parliament members who belong to the ANC it means they have no confidence in Parliament, then they need to stop whatever they are doing and dissolve parliament.

Wanting to invent new laws and and a different democracy now sounds more like politicking and nothing else to me, parliament must simply get on with the business and stop fooling around.
 

PrimeSteak

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The ANC as a party will not be involved in parliamentary proceedings, the MPs of the National Assembly would be.
MPs that are still part of the party involved in State Capture...
If the opposition parties have lost confidence in parliament members who belong to the ANC it means they have no confidence in Parliament, then they need to stop whatever they are doing and dissolve parliament.
Snap election then? Would be in their favour probably?
Wanting to invent new laws and and a different democracy now sounds more like politicking and nothing else to me, parliament must simply get on with the business and stop fooling around.
If we can improve and strengthen our democracy and create safeguards to prevent state capture from ever happening again while holding the complicit to account, why not?
 

TheChamp

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MPs that are still part of the party involved in State Capture...

Snap election then? Would be in their favour probably?

If we can improve and strengthen our democracy and create safeguards to prevent state capture from ever happening again while holding the complicit to account, why not?
You are probably not willing to think more deeply about it, but a quick question, suppose people had to be arrested for their roles in the state capture, how is the arrest of the ANC going to look like?

How are they going to arrest and charge party and ultimately convict it and throw it in jail?
 

PrimeSteak

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But a quick question, suppose people had to be arrested for their roles in the state capture, how is the arrest of the ANC going to look like?
Probably by mass arresting incriminated leaders/MPs/members (former or current).

Not like the name and the logo FFS.
 

TheChamp

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Probably by mass arresting incriminated leaders/MPs/members (former or current).

Not like the name and the logo FFS.
100%. When they say EOH or whatever company was involved in some dodgy dealings there is usually someone who is accountable at the end of the day, either the CEO or someone higher up, it doesn't have to be a mass of people, just one person doing something on behalf of the company.

People who are implicated in wrongdoing should not be included in the committees that are investigating that particular wrongdoing, simple as that. What the opposition is suggesting is that since Mnqasela is accused of something the DA must excuse itself from the legislature and only opposition parties be left to deal with Mnqasela.

If a mayor of some metro is implicated in something, their party must excuse themselves from council and the opposition parties be left to deal with him.

As you can see it is a half cooked, non starter of an idea, and it can only be because of one thing, the opposition parties are still looking and this from a politicking point of view and are yet to appreciate the seriousness of a task that lats before them as part of Parliament.
 

Fulcrum29

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Yummy yummy


I have to ask, will we ever have the will to prosecute the Guptas? They enriched many, and established the public dialogue in which the state is now invested and committed to.

Our Interpol ambassador stated at the time that we secured a extradition treaty to secure the Guptas. That treaty should now be actioned. Nonetheless, the red notice was executed and is alleged to have produced results, but to quote,

Chrispin Phiri, spokesperson for the department of justice, told News24’s Jeff Wicks: “There is no confirmation.”

All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption. Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?

At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.

EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?
 

3WA

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Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.....

I have to ask, will we ever have the will to prosecute the Guptas? They enriched many, and established the public dialogue in which the state is now invested and committed to.

Our Interpol ambassador stated at the time that we secured a extradition treaty to secure the Guptas. That treaty should now be actioned. Nonetheless, the red notice was executed and is alleged to have produced results, but to quote,



All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption. Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?

At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.

EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?

They surely have the resources to do Zuma's Stalingrad ten times over. But it is nice that they are being harassed instead of living freely.
 

Fulcrum29

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They surely have the resources to do Zuma's Stalingrad ten times over. But it is nice that they are being harassed instead of living freely.

Yes, but 12 months and the UAE only discovered their whereabouts now? The conspiracy theorist in me says that someone wants the public attention elsewhere. The Guptas still need to be brought here, and they still need to be prosecuted, and that would not only require the NPA's and the courts’ will to do so, but also the state's will, and you can’t hold on to them, their prosecution would have to be expedited in good order.

Who knows, perhaps the Guptas were only caught now, which question whether this arrest may have also caught us by surprise?

Only time will provide the answers, but holding on too long to them without the will to prosecute may see them walk, and it doesn’t necessarily require a Stalingrad, it is the same ploy by Zuma that Thales is soon to exploit.

Addressing state capture and corruption is a battle against time, where we seemingly have no urgency.

I hope this arrest is true, and that the Guptas will be extradited, some Zuma's won't be happy since they have business interests with the Guptas in the UAE. Whichever way this will go, it will be spectacular indeed, nothing surprises me anymore.
 

PrimeSteak

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All I have to say is that the red notice will sure help Ramaphosa's New Dawn campaign, said to eliminate state capture and corruption.
Should help him out yeah. I guess we now feel how the Americans felt after they capped Bin Laden. ****ing ecstatic.
Now that he has the Guptas on the hook, what now, what will the cadres do?
Dunno, but RET and uBaba won't be ****ing happy.
At least we know that the UAE takes this serious, they did as Interpol requested. Our own record in this regard... also on this president's watch mind you.
Yup.
EDIT: To add,

For how long has this red notice been out, nearly 12 months?
Rajesh and Atul Gupta have been arrested in Dubai, more than four months after Interpol issued a red notice for them in connection with fraud and money laundering charges.
Only four. Seems like UAE played ball with Interpol.
 
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