Sign up with GoogleI think everyone (black, white, coloured, asian etc.) is agreed that crime needs to be controlled, but what else should the government do to provide opportunities for whites (both young and old) while looking out for the previously disadvantaged? I have my own theories, but I just want to hear what you guys think about it.
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'Stop exodus of skilled whites'
- Thread starter ajak
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Now to learn Spanish
I recently spent a year in France and I definitely think more South Africans should spend a decent amount of time in a country where people don't speak your language. Firstly you get to learn a new language and secondly it's an experience that is unlike anything you get in any English speaking country (or dutch speaking country if you're Afrikaans).
I think if more South Africans did this, we'd be a lot more tolerant of our various cultural groups. I definitely gained a new respect for those Afrikaaners who "can likes to speak English". It's tough communicating 24/7 in a second language.
Instead of artificially adjusting standards to keep whites out, e.g. different points required for a course based on your race rather try and work in the other direction, improve the township and other schools to a decent standard so everybody can compete fairly. Abolish Affirmative Action so people feel like they can be succesful in this country without BEE hanging over their head. Those are the obvious things, the others are less tangible but probably equally important, e.g. making them feel as if they're a part of this country and belong here, rather than being "settlers".
Spending time in another country does make you more aware of just about everything. The government does have the wrong theory with its current AA & BEE plans. If you discriminate a person based on anythings, they will rise above their circumstances, and in case, when we do, we simply take our skills and leave. Its sad, this is a beautiful country.
It is sad but at the end of the day you can't blame people for leaving. When you see the lifestyle overseas, and the lack of issues such as violent crime, AA etc. it doesn't give you much incentive to stay.
Syndyre, I agree with you on the issue of lowering standards. It's like Zimbabwe trying to solve their cash problem by printing more money. All it does is devalue that which you're trying to improve. I'm also against BEE. It transfers wealth, but not expertise. How many doctors, engineers or scientists has BEE produced? How many BEE beneficiaries would now be able to start companies, like those they now own, by themselves? I am however not so sure about affirmative action. For the record, I am a black South African. I am NOT underprivileged. My education and general upbringing was probably more advantaged than most whites, but I still feel that as a black person, people assume that I am incompetent until I prove otherwise while most whites are assumed to be competent until they prove themselves incompetent. This is why I think we still need AA. I'm damn good at my job, but my boss probably wouldn't have taken a chance with me if it wasn't for AA.
What is the measure?
What makes me laugh is that the skills they are loosing, expecially in the technical and engineering fields are not easy to regain once they have gone, and then you have to import those skills from elsewhere. The other problem with the AA policy is that many highly qualified techs are sitting unemployed or working outside of their fields because they cannot get the jobs being advertised due to their "previous advantaged" background. Ach, as far as I am concerned the whole place is gonna grind to a halt because of traffic jams before then. I unfortunately am stuck here, too old, SA passport, no degrees, and not enough pretty pieces of paper with formal qualifications on them. I shall turn off the light when the last oke leaves (assuming the lights still work and nobody has nicked the bulb)
Exactly, seems to make more sense to try and bring everyone up to the higher standard, even if it does take longer and isn't as fashionable politically.
To be honest I don't think this would necessarily be a problem if it wasn't for AA anyway. I think a lot of people have the attitude you speak of because the standards are different for different races, or perceived to be different. If there was one clearly defined standard for everybody then it would be a clear benchmark and if somebody met it you could be reasonably assured of their competence. But if you have a situation, and I'm making this up, where if you're black you need e.g. 40% to pass and if you're white you need 60% the white person is assumed to be more competent because they had to get a higher mark to pass, whereas the other person could have passed with a lower mark. IMO all this does is devalue the skills of people such as yourself who could have passed on a normal, non-weighted test in whatever field they're involved in but because of your skin colour nobody's sure. If the standards were equal then I think a lot of these problems would fall away.
Not sure where I mentioned std of living but anyway. I don't think its easy to quantify these things. The individual weighting of the factors is really up to the person involved. To some people crime may be less of an issue, the sort of property then can buy more of an issue, for some people its reversed etc. In pure economic terms, people will try to maximise their utility, and I think the place they can do that in is probably different for everybody depending on their circumstances and personal preferences.
But what do you mean by standard of living?
Yeah, that's a big problem. Not to generalise, obviously it may or may not be the general public opionion, but it's still there. Unfortunately, BEE makes it easier for them to justify their views.
But I really think when the next generations, like mine, gets into a position to hire people, things will change, and that may not be too far away. I really hope it does.
Yep, 'tis true. If anybody thinks we have a extremely low standard of living go to google or wiki and search for sudan, somalia, ethopia... Well most of the rest of africa, some states in south america,some south east asian countries etc.
Obviously our crime rate and social issues are also alarming, but most of us do get to eat regulary, have some sort of access to water etc.
Well, saying our crime rate is alarming is an understatement, but you sort of get where I'm going, while were alive, we can sort of keep head above water.
Read above... O ja, we have proper laws, on paper. We have free speach too etc. Lots of people are suffering more than us in The RSA, but ja, we've still got a loooong way to go, that is, if we don't shoot ourselves in the face before we can achieve anything.
Anyways, back to the matter at hand, I also want to leave the country, maybe permanently, maybe not. It all depends, I haven't been overseas yet, will still have to see if I could adapt.
The one real thing giving me hope for this country of ours is the service station attendants at our local engine garage. Almost all of them speaks english well, all of them can speak afrikaans, maybe not so good, but understanable. They are a bunch of friendly blokes.
Anyways, the past while, lots of them have started to study. They will now sit and read while they have time to relax instead of constantly listening to soccer on the radio. They are improving themselves, and all that on a tiny salary.
I have seen so many people who get a shot at furthering their education, then
dropping out, or just no willingness to do it. These people struggle for the rest of their lives, not all, but lots. The guys grabbing the oppotunities are going places, contributing to the economy and country as a whole in a big way.
And I'm not talking in colours, white and black people I've met and seen through my short life.
There's lots, and lots of wealthy white kids dropping out of varsity, not going to varsity etc. I'm not saying going to a university is for all, but people who can but don't want to must have a good plan or some other way of furthering their education.
The reason I'm so focused on the education subject, is because I don't think our country will make it as a plain boring manafucturing based economy, like china etc. We must build a knowledge based economy. There are many educated people of all colours and flavours, lots of smart people who didn't get the opportunity to get a good education, all willing to make this country work, but many of them are being driven out of the country because of high crime rates, discrimination. Some of us feel that we are being treated like sh*t by the current gov, once again, from all race groups. They are throwing away the country's most valuable resource, it's people!
The word discrimination already rules out fair.
But what's new in the new SA language...
Funny how ppl always return to SA after a trip abroad...
Not really the short term resolution for the problem... The grand architecture and infrastructure designed by the skilled workforce also needs to go, but not immediately...
It will deteriorate and fall apart in a few years time anyway due to the lack of maintenance...
Standards can and will never be equal, as some ppl live in shacks, not because the cannot afford better, because it is tradition. Just take a drive past most shantytowns and look around: Luxuries all around... DSTV dishes, Merc's and BMW's in the yard...
In a few years they can add SA here as well. Until then we are still enjoying a very good standard of living which, despite all the negative predictions, will still last a good few years!
Hey Orin76
As a white South African, I fully understand the wrong that was done in the past and yes, somethings have to be done to balance it all out. At the end of the day, regardless of AA, BEE, etc that is currently creating tention among ourselves, there must be a nother way where the mind set of people can be changed.
I mean, look at the black consciousness that came to light thanks to Steven Bikho..... What stops us as young South Africans (Black, White, Asian, etc) to start forming a new consciousness, regardless of race?
Hey Sludge
I'm with you on what you said earlier. I also personaly believe that as the older generation of our country that has been affected by the old regime (whether they were black or white) steps off the governing seats, and are replaced by the newer generation, things can become better.
Education does play a vital role in a society as you can teach the children from an early age of how to live together as one nation. However, educating them on what happened in the past and how it can be made better. How do you think the Germans felt afer WW2. The young generation of Germany wants to move on with their lives, having learned from the past. Learning to live a better people.
Teaching our kids from Grade 1 on the good principals of live, respecting one another, regardless of race, is where it should all begin. By the time they enter the labour force or politics, new ways will be established for everyone to work together.
I'm with you on what you said earlier. I also personaly believe that as the older generation of our country that has been affected by the old regime (whether they were black or white) steps off the governing seats, and are replaced by the newer generation, things can become better.
Education does play a vital role in a society as you can teach the children from an early age of how to live together as one nation. However, educating them on what happened in the past and how it can be made better. How do you think the Germans felt afer WW2. The young generation of Germany wants to move on with their lives, having learned from the past. Learning to live a better people.
Teaching our kids from Grade 1 on the good principals of live, respecting one another, regardless of race, is where it should all begin. By the time they enter the labour force or politics, new ways will be established for everyone to work together.