"stunning change in the way that the Catholic church speaks about gay people"

[Paul Hjul]

I am quite hesitant about posting this and hopefully my fear will be misplaced and a genuine discussion rather than some puerile and mean spirited approach.
(and of course a couple of disclaimers apply - I am not a a Roman Catholic)

http://www.news.va/en/news/synod-on-family-midterm-report-presented-2015-syno

Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners. Furthermore, the Church pays special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given priority.

 

[GreGorGy]

I am quite hesitant about posting this and hopefully my fear will be misplaced and a genuine discussion rather than some puerile and mean spirited approach.
(and of course a couple of disclaimers apply - I am not a a Roman Catholic)

http://www.news.va/en/news/synod-on-family-midterm-report-presented-2015-syno

I come from a very Catholic family. My mother was one of 500 or so. I have cousins everywhere. One of them lives in Cape Town with his husband and their little gayby. My mom, despite her very strong faith, accepts that the child (at the very least) is getting a far better deal.

 

[Nick333]

I am quite hesitant about posting this and hopefully my fear will be misplaced and a genuine discussion rather than some puerile and mean spirited approach.
(and of course a couple of disclaimers apply - I am not a a Roman Catholic)

http://www.news.va/en/news/synod-on-family-midterm-report-presented-2015-syno

I don't really know who you want to discuss this with, why or what you would consider a puerile and mean spirited approach. I certainly don't see why any queer person would or should give a fcck about the RCC's grudging blessings. Sorry if that seems puerile or mean spirited.

 

[Nick333]

I come from a very Catholic family. My mother was one of 500 or so. I have cousins everywhere. One of them lives in Cape Town with his husband and their little gayby. My mom, despite her very strong faith, accepts that the child (at the very least) is getting a far better deal.

Gayby?

 

[GreGorGy]

Gayby?

 

[Paul Hjul]

I don't really know who you want to discuss this with, why or what you would consider a puerile and mean spirited approach. I certainly don't see why any queer person would or should give a fcck about the RCC's grudging blessings. Sorry if that seems puerile or mean spirited.

it is quite an issue for a queer person who is raised as or is a Roman Catholic
it is quite an issue when one of the largest providers of education and health care in the world is the Roman Catholic Church

 

[Nick333]

it is quite an issue for a queer person who is raised as or is a Roman Catholic
it is quite an issue when one of the largest providers of education and health care in the world is the Roman Catholic Church

And, it will remain a malignant issue for queer Catholics for quite some time if this is the greatest allowance the RCC has made so far. My advice to any LGBTQ Catholic is to remove themselves from the Churches influence as far as possible as soon as possible.

 

[Nick333]

As to the RCC being one of the largest providers of education and healthcare in the world, I am aware that they own and run a lot of very nice private schools and hospitals and probably a couple of free schools and clinics but so what really? That just highlights the problem of such a powerful and influential institution believing something as ridiculous as every ejaculation being giving a fair shot at conception.

Hey it's not ok to have sex out of wedlock or with multiple partners but if you do, make sure it's with a woman and that you can get her pregnant.

Tell me that's not the Roman Churches attitude towards sex in a nutshell.

What is there to discuss except to say that given the problems of the world, an institution like the RCC is the worst possible thing. So, they've got some free clinics and schools in third world countries are they treating the problems they are helping to perpetuate? What a sick joke.

 

[porchrat]

They still regard it as immoral despite it seemingly causing no harm to anybody. Doesn't seem like much of a change. The only thing that has happened is they have said one sort of backwards compliment about homosexuals in amongst the overwhelming trend of bashing.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I am quite hesitant about posting this and hopefully my fear will be misplaced and a genuine discussion rather than some puerile and mean spirited approach.
(and of course a couple of disclaimers apply - I am not a a Roman Catholic)

http://www.news.va/en/news/synod-on-family-midterm-report-presented-2015-syno

That this 'softening' in how they talk about gay people is in any way stunning or praise-worthy is a tragedy in and of itself.

Sure, it's better than them spewing hatred left and right, but lip service remains exactly that. Until they reform their inherent bigoted stance towards homosexuals (and stop trying to enforce it through law) they'll continue to draw my scorn.

 

[Arthur]

Nick333, you clearly have some strong views on the Church. You put me in mind of Fulton Sheen's observation that "there are not ten people in America who hate the Catholic Church. But there are millions who hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church."

Over the years I've come to know a rather great deal about the Catholic Church, having voluntarily entered her after considerable initial opposition. So I recognize the objections and the animus. And I'm pretty sure there isn't an argument or objection against her I haven't heard in some or other form, and often vehemently expressed, so I am not being defensive.

There's little point on debating it here - we can at least agree that it would be pointless in this forum. I only wish to point out that what you are railing against is a crude and grotesque caricature that bears no relation to the reality. Yes of course there are sinful people in the church - it is after all a field hospital for the wounded, not a club of the righteous. One in five human beings is a Catholic, so she has many, many fallible human members. I am one. If it were only for the perfect then you or me joining it would immediately put an end to that fantasy.

To see what the Catholic Church is really all about you must look to her lord and founder, Jesus Christ, and confront the question "Who do you say I am?"

Nothing is more important for your own peace.

 

[Paul Hjul]

I am not aware of the Vatican attempting to enforce a bigoted stance through the law anywhere - there is a major problem in the US of certain RCC organizations -> and the direction from the Vatican represents a response - what the curia is concerned about is clerics being forced to act against their conscience

The piece I quoted is particularly important because it advances a best interests of the child doctrine - and that would be best interests of the child over the concerns of a church as well

In fact if you look at the churches teachings on the subject it regards homosexuality as as bad as my looking at pornography

By all means criticise the RCC on its positions on human sexuality and what not but scorn?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I am not aware of the Vatican attempting to enforce a bigoted stance through the law anywhere - there is a major problem in the US of certain RCC organizations -> and the direction from the Vatican represents a response - what the curia is concerned about is clerics being forced to act against their conscience

The piece I quoted is particularly important because it advances a best interests of the child doctrine - and that would be best interests of the child over the concerns of a church as well

In fact if you look at the churches teachings on the subject it regards homosexuality as as bad as my looking at pornography

By all means criticise the RCC on its positions on human sexuality and what not but scorn?

Their steadfast opposition to and condemnation of gay marriage is inherently bigoted, and they constantly condemn laws that allow for gay marriage. That's not clerical conscience, that's bigotry.

And let's flip it around, would the curia be totally okay with clergy that have no issue with gay marriage and wish to officiate gay weddings?

And yes, they deserve nothing but scorn for the way the institution and its representatives protect child rapists and those that cover for child rapists.

 

[Nick333]

I am not aware of the Vatican attempting to enforce a bigoted stance through the law anywhere - there is a major problem in the US of certain RCC organizations -> and the direction from the Vatican represents a response - what the curia is concerned about is clerics being forced to act against their conscience

The piece I quoted is particularly important because it advances a best interests of the child doctrine - and that would be best interests of the child over the concerns of a church as well

In fact if you look at the churches teachings on the subject it regards homosexuality as as bad as my looking at pornography

By all means criticise the RCC on its positions on human sexuality and what not but scorn?

You're right in that the RCC's stance on homosexuality is probably down right indulgent as opposed to it's stance on say reproductive rights and the use of condoms in combating STD's. I just find that the RCC presuming to pass judgement on the lives and happiness of millions somewhat condescending and distasteful.

I see the RCC as that embarrassing, senior, relative that is bigoted but too old to be expected to change their views. Except of course the RCC is unavoidable, wields real power and influence, sexually molested some of the young cousins, beat us as children and isn't likely to die in time for us to at least retain fond memories of the good times.

 

[Nick333]

I don't agree. But let's run with your definition of "bigotry" for a moment: The Church, then, remains equally "bigoted" against acts of adultery, fornication, paedophilia, bestiality, bigamy, polyandry, and indeed all other aberrant and destructive sexual behaviours we humans are capable of. As indeed the Church is opposed to all acts of murder, robbery, theft, lying, and myriad destructive behaviours that marr our human existence. And she opposes any legal legitimation of those actions. That cannot ever change.

Take note, too, of this: Of course adulterers, fornicators, paedophiles, bestialists, bigamists, polyandrists, etc are human beings and created for eternal unity with Almighty God. Like any and all other human beings without exception or distinction of race, class, gender, age, orientation, language, etc, they are endowed with human rights, dignity, and are therefore to be loved, supported, valued, protected, honoured, and cherished. But that does not mean their deviant actions are equally to be loved, honoured, cherished, etc.

Ja well, Arthur, it's probably the labeling of homosexuality as deviant alongside pedophilia and bestiality that I have the real problem with in the first place.

 

[Arthur]

I don't agree. But let's run with your definition of "bigotry" for a moment: The Church, then, remains equally "bigoted" against acts of adultery, fornication, paedophilia, bestiality, bigamy, polyandry, and indeed all other aberrant and destructive sexual behaviours we humans are capable of. As indeed the Church is opposed to all acts of murder, robbery, theft, lying, and myriad destructive behaviours that marr our human existence. And she opposes any legal legitimation of those actions. That cannot ever change.

Take note, too, of this: Of course adulterers, fornicators, paedophiles, bestialists, bigamists, polyandrists, etc are human beings and created for eternal unity with Almighty God. Like any and all other human beings without exception or distinction of race, class, gender, age, orientation, language, etc, all sinners are first and foremost human and are therefore endowed with human rights and the concomitant dignity of being created in the divine image, and we are thus bidden to love, support, value, protect, honour, defend, and cherish them as persons - as we are to all persons without distinction. All of us are sinners of one type or another. But that does not mean our deviant actions are equally to be loved, honoured, cherished, etc. If we are to attain our end we are to repent of our sins and purify our love.

 

[Arthur]

Ja well, Arthur, it's probably the labeling of homosexuality as deviant alongside pedophilia and bestiality that I have the real problem with in the first place.

Yes. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and gravely contra natura. The Catholic Church has always and ever taught that sex outside of marriage is gravely sinful, and that marriage is only possible between a capax male and female. This cannot ever change and never will.

Homosexual acts are by no means the only or worst sins. Far more common are (heterosexual) sexual acts outside of marriage. And there are plenty of very grave sins, like paedophilia, bestiality, murder, genocide, aggressive warfare, etc (not ranked in gravity, just mentioned).

We are not fixated on homosexuality and bear no special animus against homosexuals. Several of my good friends happen to be homosexual (it is incidental to the friendship), and I have often found them to be exceptionally developed and sensitive people in other very important areas. I have often hired people who happen to be homosexual, since that has absolutely no bearing on their professional competence.

 

[Nick333]

Yes. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and gravely contra natura. The Catholic Church has always and ever taught that sex outside of marriage is gravely sinful, and that marriage is only possible between a capax male and female. This cannot ever change and never will.

Homosexual acts are by no means the only or worst sins. Far more common are (heterosexual) sexual acts outside of marriage. And there are plenty of very grave sins, like paedophilia, bestiality, murder, genocide, aggressive warfare, etc (not ranked in gravity, just mentioned).

We are not fixated on homosexuality and bear no special animus against homosexuals. Several of my good friends happen to be homosexual (it is incidental to the friendship), and I have often found them to be exceptionally developed and sensitive people in other very important areas. I have often hired people who happen to be homosexual, since that has absolutely no bearing on their professional competence.

Well, thanks, Art. I wouldn't discriminate against Catholics despite their silly beliefs and prejudices.

 

[TofuMofu]

Yes. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and gravely contra natura. The Catholic Church has always and ever taught that sex outside of marriage is gravely sinful, and that marriage is only possible between a capax male and female. This cannot ever change and never will.

Homosexual acts are by no means the only or worst sins. Far more common are (heterosexual) sexual acts outside of marriage. And there are plenty of very grave sins, like paedophilia, bestiality, murder, genocide, aggressive warfare, etc (not ranked in gravity, just mentioned).

We are not fixated on homosexuality and bear no special animus against homosexuals. Several of my good friends happen to be homosexual (it is incidental to the friendship), and I have often found them to be exceptionally developed and sensitive people in other very important areas. I have often hired people who happen to be homosexual, since that has absolutely no bearing on their professional competence.

Well, we don't think being homosexual is a sin (some of us aren't even religious at all).

I can't see how something that is part of your being could be sinful. If god made me this way then he should bloody well accept me that way...

 

[Arthur]

Well, we don't think being homosexual is a sin (some of us aren't even religious at all).

I can't see how something that is part of your being could be sinful. If god made me this way then he should bloody well accept me that way...

Of course being homosexual is not a sin. This the Church very clearly teaches.

However, engaging in a homosexual act is sinful. Just like engaging in any sexual act outside marriage is sinful. Sinfulness can only relate to voluntary acts.

There are millions of homosexuals who understand this subtle but critically important difference. (And of course millions who don't.)

Here is an American faith-based organisation that addresses these issues very candidly. There are many organisations like this, working quietly and with great love.