"stunning change in the way that the Catholic church speaks about gay people"

[Paul Hjul]

This is the crux for me, homosexuality is singled out while other sins overlooked, ironically by the same institution who encourages homosexual altar boy rape by protecting the perps.

The only conclusion I can come to is the church Arthur so lovingly describe is a false church.

It isn't and that is exactly the point

 

[Arthur]

Barking up the wrong tree around here.

Saying it's a sin because your bible says so is like me telling you, eating pork is a sin because the quran says so (the bible actually also says so, but people conveniently skip this part).

Catholics do not believe it's a sin because the Bible says so.
We do not prove teachings from the Bible. That's what Protestants do.
By the way, it was Catholic bishops who wrote the New Testament. Their teaching and their teaching authority comes form Christ, and exists before a single word of the New Testament was written.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

actually read the document
its a particular point of discussion - cohabitation

Mind quoting the relevant part?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

It isn't and that is exactly the point

Of course it is, Paul. In practice, if not in theory.

 

[Arthur]

You haven't answered my question re Matthew 5:28 yet.

Sorry missed that in between everything else.

Matthew 5:28 says, 'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart' i.e. according to your bible sin is not restricted to the act alone, it in fact begins long before the actual act.

Thoughts are also acts.

 

[YAHsGeneral]

If you're serious about you're faith as a christian, then it should be obvious, homosexuality is sin. It's nothing more than a perverse spirit. You cannot have fellowship with people who willingly indulge in this sin. "...have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness". I honestly think, the catholics are not dealing with this in a drastic enough measure.

 

[Jehosefat]

What I really don't understand is why, if god is so against homosexuality, he didn't mention it in the 10 commandments?

 

[RanzB]

Thoughts are also acts.

Really?

If you're serious about you're faith as a christian, then it should be obvious, homosexuality is sin. It's nothing more than a perverse spirit. You cannot have fellowship with people who willingly indulge in this sin. "...have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness". I honestly think, the catholics are not dealing with this in a drastic enough measure.

Well, they do. Religious people will always pick and choose what they want to. As Arthur and the RCC do.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Sorry missed that in between everything else.

Thoughts are also acts.

LOL. Thought crime now. Lekker man.

Pretty clear gays are doomed then.

 

[RanzB]

What I really don't understand is why, if god is so against homosexuality, he didn't mention it in the 10 commandments?

Along with rape. Pedophiia. Bestiality. Liverpool fans. Etc.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

What I really don't understand is why, if god is so against homosexuality, he didn't mention it in the 10 commandments?

Well, he also didn't think it necessary to include genocide, slavery, rape or racism. Perhaps because he would be commanding his followers to commit all of the former in the following chapters.

 

[Arthur]

Just to reiterate a fine point: homosexuality per se isn't a sin. It is a disorder, like caries or depression or alcoholism or being born with a cleft palate or foetal alcohol syndrome. There cannot be a moral judgment (eg ascribing sinfulness or fault or blame) about a disorder as such - some arise from disordered actions (eg addiction to opiates) and some arise through the quirks of life in a post-lapsarian world. Many homosexuals report a complete involution in their condition. Reason and charity require that we accept that as true.

Those actions (thoughts, words, deeds, or their omissions when there is a duty to act) which fall within the ambit of the human will are either virtuous or vicious according to the degree of the matter and the volition of their agent.

Also, temptation is not sin. Christ was tempted and yet without sin.

I might be born with a strong temptation to indiscriminate copulation with members of the opposite sex, and adultery is sometimes a very strong temptation. But these proclivities don't make such actions necessary. Hard to deal with, sure. But not necessary. We are much more than our proclivities and desires. It's how we act on them that is morally significant.

 

[RanzB]

More and more evidence about why all laws (and governments) should be as secular as possible. Thoughts are also acts, good gosh.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Just to reiterate a fine point: homosexuality per se isn't a sin. It is a disorder, like caries or depression or alcoholism or being born with a cleft palate or foetal alcohol syndrome. There cannot be a moral judgment (eg ascribing sinfulness or fault or blame) about a disorder as such - some arise from disordered actions (eg addiction to opiates) and some arise through the quirks of life in a post-lapsarian world.

Those actions (thoughts, words, deeds, or their omissions when there is a duty to act) which fall within the ambit of the human will are either virtuous or vicious according to the degree of the matter and the volition of their agent.

Funny how all of those inherently negatively affect the person who has it. Unlike homosexuality, where the only negative affects are externally inflicted by bigots.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

More and more evidence about why all laws (and governments) should be as secular as possible. Thoughts are also acts, good gosh.

Frightening how easily it comes to the devoutly religious mind. No wonder heretics were burned so easily and the inquisition conducted so fervently.

 

[RanzB]

I might be born with a strong temptation to indiscriminate copulation with members of the opposite sex, and adultery is sometimes a very strong temptation. But these proclivities don't make such actions necessary. Hard to deal with, sure. But not necessary. We are much more than our proclivities and desires. It's how we act on them that is morally significant.

Frightening how easily it comes to the devoutly religious mind. No wonder heretics were burned so easily and the inquisition conducted so fervently.

Check out his edit. Even worse. Acting on temptations is a sin. Thoughts are acts. Therefore having thoughts about certain actions is a sin, even if you aren't physically acting on those temptations.

Scary.

 

[Arthur]

More and more evidence about why all laws (and governments) should be as secular as possible. Thoughts are also acts, good gosh.

Time to study a little. You will find more or less 100% consensus amongst philosophers of all stripes that thoughts are acts.

Thinking is an act.
Listening is an act.
Speaking is an act.
Doing (deeds) is an act.

Not hard to get, really.

 

[Arthur]

Check out his edit. Even worse. Acting on temptations is a sin. Thoughts are acts. Therefore having thoughts about certain actions is a sin, even if you aren't physically acting on those temptations.

Scary.

Perhaps you are not yet sufficiently self-aware to recognise that some thoughts arise involuntarily, entering the intellect beyond the ambit of the will. The morally significant thing is what do you do with those thoughts. Do you entertain them, or let them entertain you, to put it colloquially?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Check out his edit. Even worse. Acting on temptations is a sin. Thoughts are acts. Therefore having thoughts about certain actions is a sin, even if you aren't physically acting on those temptations.

Scary.

Par for the course.

 

[RanzB]

Matthew 5:28 says, 'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart' i.e. according to your bible sin is not restricted to the act alone, it in fact begins long before the actual act.

On what grounds have you decided to split the thought from the act? Do you & the church really imagine you have the right to override the actual words of god?

Thoughts are also acts.

More and more evidence about why all laws (and governments) should be as secular as possible. Thoughts are also acts, good gosh.

Time to study a little. You will find more or less 100% consensus amongst philosophers of all stripes that thoughts are acts.

Thinking is an act.
Listening is an act.
Speaking is an act.
Doing (deeds) is an act.

Not hard to get, really.

Lol. Sure Arthur. Pretend you misunderstood the entire context of the conversation