Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

[deathprophet215]

I never once said Europeans haven't brought benefits to this country, now who is being dishonest? It's easy to say that the benefits outweigh the misery when you belong to the race that the misery didn't affect.

And I never said you implied they didn't, read the sentence properly. It's also easy to deduce the fact that benefits outweigh the misery by two primary factors.

The first factor is your choice to have adopted European moral, ethical and political frameworks because they're more advanced than what you had. You've chosen to continue to utilize the alphabet, science, medicine, you reproduce at unsustainable rates which result in poverty because of the food security afforded by the agricultural science you learned from Europeans and still use. You use everything except the European nepotism, which you condemn whilst practicing your own form of nepotism to the exclusion and detriment of Europeans, which is hypocritical.

The second factor is observing whether the oppression which came with European settlement outweighs the oppression that existed before European settlement, and the answer is no. It was Europeans who set out to end slavery, you had enslaved each other. It was Europeans who introduced your particular model of human relations, egalitarianism, whilst pre-settlement there were various displacements, massacres and genocides among tribes, so it could be argued that the concept didn't even exist in Southern Africa.

So when I observe the reality of the history of this nation objectively, and I see where it started and where it currently stands, I can honestly say that logic dictates that Southern Africa was a massive beneficiary of European settlement.

 

[AfricanTech]

So, whose clone is deathprophet215? A member since 2013, grand total of 136 posts suddenly ramping up posting activity, the content of which, frankly, would make most white supremacists jealous?

Could be that oke from the Trump threads - I forget it's name. Was also very erudite and then fell on its on sword defending clear nonsense.

 

[AfricanTech]

Nepotism could also be utilized to elevate an in-group which is not incompetent, but the ANC is clearly an example of the opposite, although it proves why it's remained an evolutionary psychological mechanism since even idiots can become the elite and wealthy by means of nepotism.

Yep.

 

[deathprophet215]

Please don't die on this hill.

I'm enjoying your input - decent insights and cogent arguments.

When you talk kuk and generalise from specific incidents that are not enshrined within a legally accepted framework (like slavery used to be) then all you do is undermine your own credibility.

In short, your argument stands quite well on its own without making up stuff.

Show me a single instance in Africa where slavery and cannabilism is legally sanctioned.

As an aside, it's the same error that defenders of Apartheid make - they ignore/forget that it was a legally imposed and sanctioned framework ie it was the Law with the full mechanism of the State in support - the difference between that and 'naturally' occurring social organisation is a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon.

We're not talking with regards to legality, my argument is with regards to this being a cultural rather than an individual phenomena as opposed to the rest of the world, bar perhaps South America.

(PDF) Traditional healing and ritualized cannibalism in South Africa and Botswana: The Muthi killings

PDF | In Africa many people believe that there is healing properties associated with the organs of the body. Animal organs have some healing power, but... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

"In Africa many people believe that there is healing properties associated with the organs of the body. Animal organs have some healing power, but human organs are the most powerful for healing humans and of the organs the genitals are considered the most powerful for healing. The younger the person is, the more powerful the healing power of the organ and the organ is most powerful for healing, if it is removed alive and the more painful the removal is, the more powerful medicin can be made from the organs. This African tradition, which can also be found in other societies throughout history, goes against modern concepts of ethics and the Traditional Healers Organization have started a movement to explain away with these myths. We have recently travelled in South Africa and participated in meetings about these issues and relay our experience in this paper."

This is an example of the Southern branch of the Nguni's cultural tendency towards cannibalism, I'm sure I could find the same tendencies in most African countries south of the Sahara. Once again, I never implied it was some legally accepted phenomena, my point was that the indigenous religions perpetuate the idea that cannibalism is a positive practice, despite the debilitating diseases caused thereby.

 

[borro]

 

[deathprophet215]

Could be that oke from the Trump threads - I forget it's name. Was also very erudite and then fell on its on sword defending clear nonsense.

I'm neither conservatively-inclined nor do I live vicariously through American politics. I am myself, I've merely taken a recent interest in conversing with fellow South Africans.

 

[Cray]

And I never said you implied they didn't, read the sentence properly. It's also easy to deduce the fact that benefits outweigh the misery by two primary factors.

The first factor is your choice to have adopted European moral, ethical and political frameworks because they're more advanced than what you had. You've chosen to continue to utilize the alphabet, science, medicine, you reproduce at unsustainable rates which result in poverty because of the food security afforded by the agricultural science you learned from Europeans and still use. You use everything except the European nepotism, which you condemn whilst practicing your own form of nepotism to the exclusion and detriment of Europeans, which is hypocritical.

Phew, that's quite the broad brush you have there. Care to describe what else I do by virtue of belonging to a particular racial group?

The second factor is observing whether the oppression which came with European settlement outweighs the oppression that existed before European settlement, and the answer is no. It was Europeans who set out to end slavery, you had enslaved each other. It was Europeans who introduced your particular model of human relations, egalitarianism, whilst pre-settlement there were various displacements, massacres and genocides among tribes, so it could be argued that the concept didn't even exist in Southern Africa.

I like how you direct all this at me personally... I have never once enslaved anyone or massacred anyone. If you want to take credit for the things your ancestors did, knock yourself out but some of us prefer to see people as human beings first and foremost, and I will take credit for my own achievements, not those of people in the past who I think relate to me simply because of my skin colour.

 

[AfricanTech]

We're not talking with regards to legality, my argument is with regards to this being a cultural rather than an individual phenomena as opposed to the rest of the world, bar perhaps South America.

(PDF) Traditional healing and ritualized cannibalism in South Africa and Botswana: The Muthi killings

PDF | In Africa many people believe that there is healing properties associated with the organs of the body. Animal organs have some healing power, but... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

"In Africa many people believe that there is healing properties associated with the organs of the body. Animal organs have some healing power, but human organs are the most powerful for healing humans and of the organs the genitals are considered the most powerful for healing. The younger the person is, the more powerful the healing power of the organ and the organ is most powerful for healing, if it is removed alive and the more painful the removal is, the more powerful medicin can be made from the organs. This African tradition, which can also be found in other societies throughout history, goes against modern concepts of ethics and the Traditional Healers Organization have started a movement to explain away with these myths. We have recently travelled in South Africa and participated in meetings about these issues and relay our experience in this paper."

This is an example of the Southern branch of the Nguni's cultural tendency towards cannibalism, I'm sure I could find the same tendencies in most African countries south of the Sahara. Once again, I never implied it was some legally accepted phenomena, my point was that the indigenous religions perpetuate the idea that cannibalism is a positive practice, despite the debilitating diseases caused thereby.

and?

You've lost me tbh - what do these illegal practises have to do with anything?

Modern civilisations are built on Legal Frameworks - the rules that we all agree to live by and fund the enforcement of by way of paying taxes.

 

[AfricanTech]

I'm neither conservatively-inclined nor do I live vicariously through American politics. I am myself, I've merely taken a recent interest in conversing with fellow South Africans.

We'll see.

Happy to take you at face value for now.

 

[deathprophet215]

Phew, that's quite the broad brush you have there. Care to describe what else I do by virtue of belonging to a particular racial group?


I like how you direct all this at me personally... I have never once enslaved anyone or massacred anyone. If you want to take credit for the things your ancestors did, knock yourself out but some of us prefer to see people as human beings first and foremost, and I will take credit for my own achievements, not those of people in the past who I think relate to me simply because of my skin colour.

My assumption regarding you being black is based upon your emotionally-driven response to my arguments, which frame the situation logically, therefore there should be no reason for an emotional reaction. Once again, should you go back to previous posts, I mentioned that there's a presumption since I'm operating under the assumption that whilst you may not have displayed it during the span of our conversation, you're generally a logically-inclined individual. Which would explain why you make intellectually-dishonest arguments in the interest of black South Africans at the expense of white South Africans since it's simply a form of nepotism, which I have no problem with, merely the arguments applied which are not logically coherent.

If my assumption is incorrect, there are two alternatives; you're either a non-European South African who argues from the same position as black South Africans and the argument is equally relevant, therefore the "you" in my phrasing still applies, or you're a European South African who exhibits self-destructive tendencies and have taken an unnatural position with regards to human relations since your rhetoric is counter-nepotistic.

 

[AfricanTech]

@ShaunSA

TLDR - we now talking about African slavery, cannibalism and muti murders showing that black people are inherently uncivlised and should therefore be grateful for any indignities heaped upon them.

 

[deathprophet215]

and?

You've lost me tbh - what do these illegal practises have to do with anything?

Modern civilisations are built on Legal Frameworks - the rules that we all agree to live by and fund the enforcement of by way of paying taxes.

It has to do with the implication made by the intellectually-dishonest individuals on the forum that somehow Africans have a moral high ground, whilst historically and currently incorrect since they practice slavery and cannibalism at disproportionate levels in Africa. The point in proving that this practice stems from the African indigenous religions is to counter a resulting argument they would attempt to make, which would suggest that European colonialism is responsible for slavery and cannibalism in Africa, when it existed long before Europeans got here.

 

[deathprophet215]

@ShaunSA

TLDR - we now talking about African slavery, cannibalism and muti murders showing that black people are inherently uncivlised and should therefore be grateful for any indignities heaped upon them.

Once again dishonesty. But I get it, you're emotionally rather than logically-inclined therefore this is all you can observe. All my argument is, is that non-European South Africans don't have a moral high ground from which to condemn Europeans or imply Europeans are especially guilty for their respective past in this country based on a particular model of human relations, when pre-settlement South Africa practiced cannibalism, slavery, genocide and eugenics.

 

[AfricanTech]

It has to do with the implication made by the intellectually-dishonest individuals on the form that somehow Africans have a moral high ground, whilst historically and currently incorrect since they practice slavery and cannibalism at disproportionate levels in Africa. The point in proving that this practice stems from the African indigenous religions is to counter a resulting argument they would attempt to make, which would suggest that European colonialism is responsible for slavery and cannibalism in Africa, when it existed long before Europeans got here.

No one has a moral high ground in general - there are specific areas that specific groups may have a moral high ground on but it is not generalisable.

 

[ShaunSA]

@ShaunSA

TLDR - we now talking about African slavery, cannibalism and muti murders showing that black people are inherently uncivlised and should therefore be grateful for any indignities heaped upon them.

Thanks!

The last few pages are a load of

 

[AfricanTech]

Once again dishonesty. But I get it, you're emotionally rather than logically-inclined therefore this is all you can observe. All my argument is, is that South Africans have moral high ground from which to condemn Europeans or imply Europeans are especially guilty for their respective past in this country based on a particular model of human relations, when pre-settlement South Africa practiced cannibalism, slavery, genocide and eugenics.

I was talking to Shaun not you.

He'll understand intrinsically what I'm saying.


You won't (or can't).

 

[AfricanTech]

Once again dishonesty. But I get it, you're emotionally rather than logically-inclined therefore this is all you can observe. All my argument is, is that non-European South Africans don't a have moral high ground from which to condemn Europeans or imply Europeans are especially guilty for their respective past in this country based on a particular model of human relations, when pre-settlement South Africa practiced cannibalism, slavery, genocide and eugenics.

Oh and in your rush to reply you left out a 'dont'...and in your edit put the 'have' in the wrong place.

Slow down, this isn't a speed of thought competition.

 

[deathprophet215]

Please don't die on this hill.

I'm enjoying your input - decent insights and cogent arguments.

When you talk kuk and generalise from specific incidents that are not enshrined within a legally accepted framework (like slavery used to be) then all you do is undermine your own credibility.

In short, your argument stands quite well on its own without making up stuff.

Show me a single instance in Africa where slavery and cannabilism is legally sanctioned.

As an aside, it's the same error that defenders of Apartheid make - they ignore/forget that it was a legally imposed and sanctioned framework ie it was the Law with the full mechanism of the State in support - the difference between that and 'naturally' occurring social organisation is a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon.

Ah, I only now observed the last part of your post here. With regards to Apartheid, another example of state-level nepotism as currently practiced by the ANC, how do you feel about modern nations doing the same thing? India for example has discriminatory laws against perceived others, and preferential treatment for the perceived in-group. They have constant violations, according to your chosen egalitarian model of human relations, against religious and ethnic minorities.

My honest question is, is India, or China's concentration camps, considered equally appalling to historical European parallels?

 

[AfricanTech]

Ah, I only now observed the last part of your post here. With regards to Apartheid, another example of state-level nepotism as currently practiced by the ANC, how do you feel about modern nations doing the same thing? India for example has discriminatory laws against perceived others, and preferential treatment for the perceived in-group. They have constant violations, according to your chosen egalitarian model of human relations, against religious and ethnic minorities.

My honest question is, is India, or China's concentration camps, considered equally appalling to historical European parallels?

Who are you asking?

If me, the answer is 'Yes'. It's equally appalling, maybe worse since they have the lessons of history at their disposal.

Don't get me started on how f.cked up Indian politics and the entire society including the cultural paradigms is.

On China, they grind their own people to dust to maintain their political system so ja....

Note - that's in general. Some of my best friends are Indian and Chinese (plus of course many many other nationalities).

 

[deathprophet215]

Who are you asking?

If me, the answer is 'Yes'. It's equally appalling, maybe worse since they have the lessons of history at their disposal.

Don't get me started on how f.cked up Indian politics and the entire society including the cultural paradigms is.

On China, they grind their own people to dust to maintain their political system so ja....

Note - that's in general. Some of my best friends are Indian and Chinese (plus of course many many other nationalities).

Ah, the I have non-white friends so I'm not a racist angle, I get you. (I'm obviously joking, but treating you in the same way you've resorted to treating me, although in jest.)

From the egalitarian perspective at least your logic is consistent then, the problem though comes in at the fact that the perception of the role of the human being in the given society is different. And who is ultimately right or wrong in these situations is relative, though the prevailing popular position will be determined by who becomes the world hegemon, and judging by the current trajectory that will be China for the remainder of my life. That doesn't mean I agree with the Chinese, I'm just pointing out that philosophy and ethics aren't monolithic, which to me makes the world a far more interesting place. Imagine how boring the world would be if everyone's positions were exactly the same.