Tinuva

The Magician
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
10,541
I'll ignore the ad hominems, and respond by saying that you need to consider being a little more broad-minded, that way you are eminently more teachable.

The clues as to why I say that the Hubble S-100 is far better than the Pylontech US3000 lies in the S-100's versatility.
1. Can the Hubble S-100 do the job of the Pylontech US3000? Yes, easily. 4 in series will give you 48V, discharge of 50A and a charge rate of 25A, capacity of 100Ah. 16 in series and parallel will give you 48V at 400A discharge rate and 200A charge rate, 400 Ah capacity.
2. Can the Pylontech US3000 do the job of the Hubble? No, not without significant re-engineering, expense and inefficiency.

Which is therefore the more versatile battery?
Your math seems wrong, just saying. 50A x 4 != 400A discharge rate

Also...who the hell wants to put down 16 batteries when you can do that with 4x US3000s in a neat cabinet.

I don't have anything against you or hubble, even consider myself broad minded as you say, but I definitely do not agree with your reasoning or opinion.
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
What you are doing is deceiving the ignorant people at the highest level.

You are working with theoretical figures, not real world results.

Insult to injury, you actually use the model built with recycled cells, and compare it to a brand/model that's proven itself , in thousands of installations.

Geez dude, if you were running a business, HelloPeter servers would be crashing right now.
You keep harping on the 2nd life cell issue. The Hubble S-100s are the only Hubble batteries that make use of 2nd life cells, all of Hubbles other ranges, such as the AM-2 series, make use of brand new NMC cells sourced from BYD. For someone who needs a good battery, and are unable to afford brand new, 2nd life cells make good economic sense. It's largely irrelevant as long as they perform as per the guarantee.
Your comments, as per your post history, is offensive to most forumites. You also seem to have an extreme dislike for 2nd life cells, and those who purchase them, which paints you as pompous and elitist.

But most of all, you are unable to disprove the facts.
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
Your math seems wrong, just saying. 50A x 4 != 400A discharge rate

Also...who the hell wants to put down 16 batteries when you can do that with 4x US3000s in a neat cabinet.

I don't have anything against you or hubble, even consider myself broad minded as you say, but I definitely do not agree with your reasoning or opinion.
Ah, thank you, at least someone is awake!
Correction: 4 Hubble S-100s in series will deliver 48V at 100A.

Yes, you make a good point, however the question was posed as to why I say that they are better, and I believe that I answered that quite clearly.
 

ADrunkTeddyBear

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
758
You keep harping on the 2nd life cell issue. The Hubble S-100s are the only Hubble batteries that make use of 2nd life cells, all of Hubbles other ranges, such as the AM-2 series, make use of brand new NMC cells sourced from BYD. For someone who needs a good battery, and are unable to afford brand new, 2nd life cells make good economic sense. It's largely irrelevant as long as they perform as per the guarantee.
Your comments, as per your post history, is offensive to most forumites. You also seem to have an extreme dislike for 2nd life cells, and those who purchase them, which paints you as pompous and elitist.

But most of all, you are unable to disprove the facts.

I would like to point out that the Mecer 200Ah Lithium battery also uses 2nd life cells and thats one of our main sellers over the passed year or so.

No issues so far regarding failures yet, so looks like 2nd life cells are quite good.

PS some of our customers are using these mecer 200Ah batteries in 48V Infinisolar and Voltronic inverter systems with panels
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
I would like to point out that the Mecer 200Ah Lithium battery also uses 2nd life cells and thats one of our main sellers over the passed year or so.

No issues so far regarding failures yet, so looks like 2nd life cells are quite good.

PS some of our customers are using these mecer 200Ah batteries in 48V Infinisolar and Voltronic inverter systems with panels
Correct, so does Revov and many others.
 

The_Traveller

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,379
You keep harping on the 2nd life cell issue. The Hubble S-100s are the only Hubble batteries that make use of 2nd life cells, all of Hubbles other ranges, such as the AM-2 series, make use of brand new NMC cells sourced from BYD. For someone who needs a good battery, and are unable to afford brand new, 2nd life cells make good economic sense. It's largely irrelevant as long as they perform as per the guarantee.
Your comments, as per your post history, is offensive to most forumites. You also seem to have an extreme dislike for 2nd life cells, and those who purchase them, which paints you as pompous and elitist.

But most of all, you are unable to disprove the facts.

Facts ? what facts ? the Hubble is probably another bubble.

Only time will tell ( a good few years) on how good or bad this product is and to compare it to reputable brands is criminal.

I wont be surprised if you're in this thread speaking highly of this car and promoting the brand.

As for the highlighted part, spoken like a true girl. Grow a pair will you.
 

ADrunkTeddyBear

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
758
Facts ? what facts ? the Hubble is probably another bubble.

Only time will tell ( a good few years) on how good or bad this product is and to compare it to reputable brands is criminal.

I wont be surprised if you're in this thread speaking highly of this car and promoting the brand.

As for the highlighted part, spoken like a true girl. Grow a pair will you.
I have seen the teardowns of the Hubble battery and it does look pretty good on the side with good quality components.

Although yes time will tell on how they honour their warranty. I'm gonna be a hubble battery owner soon so if there's any issues with warranty I'll be sure to keep this thread updated.

From my experience pylon doesn't have any issues with honouring their warranty. We have had a few issues with pylon batteries but the distributor did handle all of the issues with no fuss so I can say Pylon does honor their warranty to the T.

Mustek handles warranties pretty well. Had no issues with a few units sent in.

I cannot answer for any other brand because

A) We didn't get issues yet
B) We don't sell them.

We did sell freedomwon batteries but have had no issues yet. Mostly because we only sold 1 or 2 batteries and can't comment on that.
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
Facts ? what facts ? the Hubble is probably another bubble.
So still no facts, just BS.
Only time will tell ( a good few years) on how good or bad this product is and to compare it to reputable brands is criminal.
Criminal? :giggle: Nah, just more BS from you, if that were true, then why don't you lay some charges?
I wont be surprised if you're in this thread speaking highly of this car and promoting the brand.
More speculation, conjecture and BS, do you see the pattern here?
 

Herr der Verboten

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
11,053
Questions
1. How do I calculate the storage I need? Say I use 17kwh a day, then I want at least 24 hours running from the batteries
2. How do I calculate the panels I need? It should be a be to charge for at least 5 hours as well as give power for those 5 hours

When I look at this

It seems to be able to run with max expected spikes (inverter) and at least the 34kwh on batteries for 24 hours. Well I don't know, but I've googled calculators but can't seem to get a good one to put the puzzle together from my usage sheet. Sadly I can't measure my oven or geyser as they are running directly from the house.

I want to run hybrid, that is from eskom, batteries and solar on a 48v lithium system (like solar advice link). From those 3 I would like to be up for at least 24 hours.

Thanks
 

thehuman

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Messages
3,703
Questions
1. How do I calculate the storage I need? Say I use 17kwh a day, then I want at least 24 hours running from the batteries
2. How do I calculate the panels I need? It should be a be to charge for at least 5 hours as well as give power for those 5 hours

When I look at this

It seems to be able to run with max expected spikes (inverter) and at least the 34kwh on batteries for 24 hours. Well I don't know, but I've googled calculators but can't seem to get a good one to put the puzzle together from my usage sheet. Sadly I can't measure my oven or geyser as they are running directly from the house.

I want to run hybrid, that is from eskom, batteries and solar on a 48v lithium system (like solar advice link). From those 3 I would like to be up for at least 24 hours.

Thanks
Split that 17kwh in day and night use
 

AchmatK

Executive Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
7,821
Questions
1. How do I calculate the storage I need? Say I use 17kwh a day, then I want at least 24 hours running from the batteries
2. How do I calculate the panels I need? It should be a be to charge for at least 5 hours as well as give power for those 5 hours

When I look at this

It seems to be able to run with max expected spikes (inverter) and at least the 34kwh on batteries for 24 hours. Well I don't know, but I've googled calculators but can't seem to get a good one to put the puzzle together from my usage sheet. Sadly I can't measure my oven or geyser as they are running directly from the house.

I want to run hybrid, that is from eskom, batteries and solar on a 48v lithium system (like solar advice link). From those 3 I would like to be up for at least 24 hours.

Thanks
Start with an efergy or some other whole house energy monitoring system. This will give you a complete picture of daily consumption and demand peaks.

Next is to try and move some of your nighttime loads to the day. Lights should also all be led. Cooking on gas also helps.

Monitor after these changes again for a few weeks.

Your daily usage will determine the batteries and solar panels needed. Your demand peaks will inform you on what the minimum inverter specs need to be in order to handle the spikes.

This is a basic starting point for any whole house solar setup weather going grid tied or off grid.
 

tRoN

Executive Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
6,511
Questions

I want at least 24 hours running from the batteries

I want to run hybrid, that is from eskom, batteries and solar

From those 3 I would like to be up for at least 24 hours.

So I’m confused….

Initially you say you want to run 24 hours from battery then at the end you say you want to include Eskom?
 

AchmatK

Executive Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
7,821
So I’m confused….

Initially you say you want to run 24 hours from battery then at the end you say you want to include Eskom?
It's not uncommon to have very bad pv days spanning more than 2 days. Making Eskom your backup for these events is not a bad idea.

My first winter in CT with my 10.3kw of panels has shown me that I would need 100kwh of lithium batteries and another 40kw of solar panels in order to eliminate Eskom completely. For me if I can get my Eskom dependency down to 5%, that would be ideal.

Off grid would cost too much and will need to include a generator AND a wind turbine to cover for the bad solar days.
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
Questions
1. How do I calculate the storage I need? Say I use 17kwh a day, then I want at least 24 hours running from the batteries
2. How do I calculate the panels I need? It should be a be to charge for at least 5 hours as well as give power for those 5 hours

When I look at this

It seems to be able to run with max expected spikes (inverter) and at least the 34kwh on batteries for 24 hours. Well I don't know, but I've googled calculators but can't seem to get a good one to put the puzzle together from my usage sheet. Sadly I can't measure my oven or geyser as they are running directly from the house.

I want to run hybrid, that is from eskom, batteries and solar on a 48v lithium system (like solar advice link). From those 3 I would like to be up for at least 24 hours.

Thanks
It's good to start with a daily usage figure like 17kWh, it gives some idea. It's also difficult because your usage pattern is unknown. Things like these:
  • How do you heat water? geyer/s / heatpump / solar assisted?
    • Do you expect to heat water when it's dark, or can you reschedule it when the sun shines, and store sufficient quantities until the sun comes around again?
  • How do you cook food? Gas or electricity? Or just braai like @Pineapple Smurf ?
    • How often you use your electric oven, some love it (everyday) and some hardly ever.
    • Do you want to cook food after the sun goes down?
Also important is you and your family / resident's willingness to change old (and wasteful) habits. Some may have no problem, others may insist on bathing / grilling steaks at midnight and sleeping with electric blankets.

Very rough guesstimate, based on your average usage of 17kWh per day (I very rarely hit over that with my 6kWp, 5K Sunsynk, only some days):

Panels: Assuming North facing azimuth, 26 degree tilt, bare minimum would 6kWp, but you will need to juggle loads like mad during the day, and forget about charging batteries fully when there is 30-40% cloud cover. On bad solar days, you will definitely need Eskom. 10-10.5kWp on the roof would be far better, but still marginal on bad solar days. 12kWp would be ideal. Far more than this if you have E <-> W orientation or flat install.

Inverter: With 6kWp, and juggling loads like mad, you could easily start small with a 5K Sunsynk, and add another in parallel (and more panels) as you go along. If this does not appeal to you, then an 8K would also be a good start.

Batteries: The most expensive bit. Those who are financially astute would leave them until last, until you have saved enough (from not paying Eskom) to buy them. This may mean 2-3 years without them, to many, particularly with Eskom availability being a lottery, this approach may be unacceptable. Capacity would be largely dependent on your baseload, that's only essentials (no geyser / clothewashing/ tumble drying / grilling / breadmaking / auto-dishwashing) and includes things like lights, fridge/s, deepfreeze/s, security lights, alarm system, electric fence, security beams, router/s, CPE, TVs, TV boxen, cellphone charger/s, server boxen, Raspberry Pis and anything else that needs to run throughout the night. My own baseload is between 250 and 450W, I have 3x US3000s and they are at roughly 60% each morning. If I decide to grill bacon wrapped shrimp / leg of lamb at midnight, there is substantially less, maybe 35-40%. I also do not own a TV or DSTV (SABC are you listening?), so mine may differ somewhat from yours. Best get measuring.

So it depends: there is the frugal strategy (optimise usage, and at the same time get anything, even a second-hand axpert with as many panels as it can take and that you can afford, and you could start saving towards batteries in the second year. You can always sell your kit, there's always someone wanting to start out. Or if you prefer the opposite approach, drop 4-500k on a Victron / Fronius micro-grid install with BYD batteries, like this guy, and do it in style and comfort.
Or just go middle of the road and get a Sunsynk and some panels. No-one's going to judge you (except a select few assh0l3s), and it's good that you started thinking this way. The important thing to do is make a start. Remember is that the best time to go solar was six months ago last year, the second best time is today.
 

Herr der Verboten

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
11,053
Start with an efergy or some other whole house energy monitoring system. This will give you a complete picture of daily consumption and demand peaks.

Next is to try and move some of your nighttime loads to the day. Lights should also all be led. Cooking on gas also helps.

Monitor after these changes again for a few weeks.

Your daily usage will determine the batteries and solar panels needed. Your demand peaks will inform you on what the minimum inverter specs need to be in order to handle the spikes.

This is a basic starting point for any whole house solar setup weather going grid tied or off grid.
Thanks I'll look into this.
It's good to start with a daily usage figure like 17kWh, it gives some idea. It's also difficult because your usage pattern is unknown. Things like these:
  • How do you heat water? geyer/s / heatpump / solar assisted?
    • Do you expect to heat water when it's dark, or can you reschedule it when the sun shines, and store sufficient quantities until the sun comes around again?
  • How do you cook food? Gas or electricity? Or just braai like @Pineapple Smurf ?
    • How often you use your electric oven, some love it (everyday) and some hardly ever.
    • Do you want to cook food after the sun goes down?
Also important is you and your family / resident's willingness to change old (and wasteful) habits. Some may have no problem, others may insist on bathing / grilling steaks at midnight and sleeping with electric blankets.

Very rough guesstimate, based on your average usage of 17kWh per day (I very rarely hit over that with my 6kWp, 5K Sunsynk, only some days):

Panels: Assuming North facing azimuth, 26 degree tilt, bare minimum would 6kWp, but you will need to juggle loads like mad during the day, and forget about charging batteries fully when there is 30-40% cloud cover. On bad solar days, you will definitely need Eskom. 10-10.5kWp on the roof would be far better, but still marginal on bad solar days. 12kWp would be ideal. Far more than this if you have E <-> W orientation or flat install.

Inverter: With 6kWp, and juggling loads like mad, you could easily start small with a 5K Sunsynk, and add another in parallel (and more panels) as you go along. If this does not appeal to you, then an 8K would also be a good start.

Batteries: The most expensive bit. Those who are financially astute would leave them until last, until you have saved enough (from not paying Eskom) to buy them. This may mean 2-3 years without them, to many, particularly with Eskom availability being a lottery, this approach may be unacceptable. Capacity would be largely dependent on your baseload, that's only essentials (no geyser / clothewashing/ tumble drying / grilling / breadmaking / auto-dishwashing) and includes things like lights, fridge/s, deepfreeze/s, security lights, alarm system, electric fence, security beams, router/s, CPE, TVs, TV boxen, cellphone charger/s, server boxen, Raspberry Pis and anything else that needs to run throughout the night. My own baseload is between 250 and 450W, I have 3x US3000s and they are at roughly 60% each morning. If I decide to grill bacon wrapped shrimp / leg of lamb at midnight, there is substantially less, maybe 35-40%. I also do not own a TV or DSTV (SABC are you listening?), so mine may differ somewhat from yours. Best get measuring.

So it depends: there is the frugal strategy (optimise usage, and at the same time get anything, even a second-hand axpert with as many panels as it can take and that you can afford, and you could start saving towards batteries in the second year. You can always sell your kit, there's always someone wanting to start out. Or if you prefer the opposite approach, drop 4-500k on a Victron / Fronius micro-grid install with BYD batteries, like this guy, and do it in style and comfort.
Or just go middle of the road and get a Sunsynk and some panels. No-one's going to judge you (except a select few assh0l3s), and it's good that you started thinking this way. The important thing to do is make a start. Remember is that the best time to go solar was six months ago last year, the second best time is today.
Thanks for the detailed answer.

That 17kWh I got from measuring everything I could over a few hours/days with my watt o meter. Then taking all their kwh's to one hour usage tallied for the essentials over 12 hours. E.g. (example numbers, not real) tv is essential with usage of 1kwh for 1 day, that is then 1/2=0.5kwh for 12 hours running. Basically how I got to 17kWh. btw, I use a gas top and oven, geyser is still plain old without any optimizations like heatpump, gas or solar.

Then I thought who does one actually calculate the number of batteries for 12 running. However, I beginning to think that might be too expensive and rework/optimize usage along side running hybrid to fill the gaps as you've mentioned. I'll have to get a meter for the DB and see how it goes for a few days before looking further into this.
 

RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
Thanks I'll look into this.

Thanks for the detailed answer.

That 17kWh I got from measuring everything I could over a few hours/days with my watt o meter. Then taking all their kwh's to one hour usage tallied for the essentials over 12 hours. E.g. (example numbers, not real) tv is essential with usage of 1kwh for 1 day, that is then 1/2=0.5kwh for 12 hours running. Basically how I got to 17kWh. btw, I use a gas top and oven, geyser is still plain old without any optimizations like heatpump, gas or solar.

Then I thought who does one actually calculate the number of batteries for 12 running. However, I beginning to think that might be too expensive and rework/optimize usage along side running hybrid to fill the gaps as you've mentioned. I'll have to get a meter for the DB and see how it goes for a few days before looking further into this.
That's quite OK, quite painful I know, but in fairness, we all started out with educated!?! guesswork. Yours is probably better than most --using the watt-o-meter, and it's probably the most accurate too. Plus you can cross-check with your prepaid meter, or even your postpaid spinning disk meter. What is your total monthly bill in kWh?

At least you have somewatt of an idea of your consumption. That counts. And even if you reach a decision: Go/No Go for solar, at least you know and understand your consumption, it's the first step to improving it.

The principles (and method):
  • Don't ever give Eskom (and all of their freeloaders) anything more than you can afford to;
  • Reduce consumption the smart way:
    • Understand what it is that you use today;
    • Optimise to reduce utilisation (and reduce your bill at the same time);
      • install efficient water heating;
      • evaluate that new kettle vs a gas one;
      • install efficient lighting and security systems; and
      • evaluate and review unnecessary BS (mine is any TV period, yours may be something else).
  • Celebrate your consumption losses:
    • Make heroes out of people who change their consumption behavior, no matter how small;
    • Create a culture of responsible usage; have a monthly family meeting where the bill and targets are analysed, conlusions and goals reached and agreed;
  • Set the next reduction goal (but be realistic, don't divorce over an electric blanket when you can simply install another R20K battery);
  • Install or acquire modern / better / alternative energy tech:
    • critically evaluate purchase decisions. What does the old 7.1 cinema surround sound consume on standby? Grandpa's valve amp may be cool but what does it consume? Is it really necessary? What about a newer soundbar with a more efficient class-D amp?
  • Install alternative energy source/s; Solar is one, but there is also wind.
Or you can just install an 8K Sunsynk with a few panels, geyser and other non-essentials on the non-essential load, and build it up on a 2-3 monthly basis. This will have the effect of making the above mandatory.

Either way you can't lose. Take the plunge and give it a try!
 

Priapus

Executive Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
7,709
It's not uncommon to have very bad pv days spanning more than 2 days. Making Eskom your backup for these events is not a bad idea.

My first winter in CT with my 10.3kw of panels has shown me that I would need 100kwh of lithium batteries and another 40kw of solar panels in order to eliminate Eskom completely. For me if I can get my Eskom dependency down to 5%, that would be ideal.

Off grid would cost too much and will need to include a generator AND a wind turbine to cover for the bad solar days.

This is the thing; people who want to go off grid don't account for. You can easily have a week of bad PV days. I have had such weeks, this year in fact. So you'd need a generator at min or a lot more batteries. Which then begs the question - what's the point?

The reason I got Solar was to have reliable power to my house; Eskom savings is a side effect of that.

To get off grid costs more than it's worth imho. I run 7hrs a day on Eskom in the evenings. I could bridge that gap with two more batteries. But it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me to do that at the moment.
 
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RonSwanson

Executive Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
7,138
This is the thing; people who want to go off grid don't account for. You can easily have a week of bad PV days. I have had such weeks, this year in fact. So you'd need a generator at min or a lot more batteries. Which then begs the question - what's the point?

The reason I got Solar was to have reliable power to my house; Eskom savings is a side effect of that.

To get off grid costs more than it's worth imho. I run 7hrs a day on Eskom in the evenings. I could bridge that gap with two more batteries. But it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me to do that at the moment.
You need to have enough storage for the evening. Bad PV days can be overcome by adding more panels. I am looking at adding another four to my current 16 for a total of 7.6 kWp.

Edit: Today was a cloudy day, here is my system's performance:
1628605786300.png

The heatpump started at 09H00 and ended just before 14H00, and my domestic was doing ironing. Batteries fully charged at 13H35 (they are usually charged by 10H00). Nothing used from Eskom.
 
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