The Battery Thread (Solar / Inverter)

Priapus said:
Yes, I'm aware. That's what I drain them to, each day.
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80% DOD is a far cry from 100%, which is why one is rated at 6000 cycles and the other at 3000. Most batteries that are 80% DOD are specced at 6000 cycles. If you run a Hubble to 20% SOC at 0.5C then you would also get 6000 cycles or close enough to it...
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
Hubble AM2:
powerforum-store.co.za

AM-2 5.5KWh 51 Volt Lithium

The AM-2 is our new 5.5KWh 51Volt Lithium pack designed to be easily wallmounted or shelf installed in a standard rack.Specifications: 51V 100 AhRating: 1CParallel: up to 15 units per stringExtras: Battery Link & DC cables includedCAN Bus: YesRIOT Cloudlink Ready: Yes All AM models have full...
powerforum-store.co.za
R24,800 / 5.5 kWh = R4,509 / kWh

Pylon UP5000:
powerforum-store.co.za

Pylon UP5000 4.8kWh Li-Ion Solar Battery 48V

A new battery in the UP series from Pylontech. The UP5000 is a 48V battery with incredible features to provide a competitive edge in the market. Product Features Modular design for ease of expansion Higher usable capacity resulting in less battery modules installed Usable capacity 4...
powerforum-store.co.za
R23,531 / 4.8 kWh = R4,902 / kWh

I know DOD etc. is a factor, but the Hubbles are pretty great at that too. Having more useable storage at almost the same price is a good deal...
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You've got to be careful now, @TheTroubler might come along and accuse you of being a clandestine Hubble shill :laugh:
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
80% DOD is a far cry from 100%, which is why one is rated at 6000 cycles and the other at 3000. Most batteries that are 80% DOD are specced at 6000 cycles. If you run a Hubble to 20% SOC at 0.5C then you would also get 6000 cycles or close enough to it...
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I am willing to bet that one will get far, far more than 6000 cycles with that use case.
 
RonSwanson said:
US3000Cs are guaranteed at 90% DoD.
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Yes, I'm aware. I have the B's though.

Mike Hoxbig said:
80% DOD is a far cry from 100%, which is why one is rated at 6000 cycles and the other at 3000. Most batteries that are 80% DOD are specced at 6000 cycles. If you run a Hubble to 20% SOC at 0.5C then you would also get 6000 cycles or close enough to it...
Click to expand...

What are you getting at, exactly?

I run the Pylontechs to 20% SoC - AKA 80% DoD. Which means at that usage, I will get 6000 cycles out of it.

I don't care what the Hubble does, nor was I questioning it's specs?
 
RonSwanson said:
So have I. And just like you, I paid for 219Ah but can only use 180 of it.
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Again not sure what the issue is. The battery works as advertised. When I bought it I knew that it had 80% DoD.

Unless I am being dense; I don’t see the issue.

Like buying a 1TB drive and only being able to use 950 or whatever of it, instead of 1024.
 
Priapus said:
Again not sure what the issue is. The battery works as advertised. When I bought it I knew that it had 80% DoD.

Unless I am being dense; I don’t see the issue.

Like buying a 1TB drive and only being able to use 950 or whatever of it, instead of 1024.
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It doesn't matter in the end, that's the point :p

You can go beyond 80%, you'll just get less cycles. Or you can reduce your DOD and get more cycles.

Product A is advertised as 80% DOD at 0.5C with 6000 cycles.
Product B is advertised as 100% DOD at 1C with 3000 cycles.

If you use both products the same way, you'll get the same amount of cycles. Forget how it's marketed. Therefore it just comes down to upfront cost per kWh and warranty, which is what sparked this whole debate...
 
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Mike Hoxbig said:
It doesn't matter in the end, that's the point :p

You can go beyond 80%, you'll just get less cycles. Or you can reduce your DOD and get one cycles.

Product A is advertised as 80% DOD at 0.5C with 6000 cycles.
Product B is advertised as 100% DOD at 1C with 3000 cycles.

If you use both products the same way, you'll get the same amount of cycles. Forget how it's marketed. Therefore it just comes down to upfront cost per kWh and warranty, which is what sparked this whole debate...
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Riiiight, I’m with you now.

So much of a muchness, to be fair depending on usage patterns.
 
furpile said:
If you look at the cycles for each battery it changes the long term value. The hubble is quoted as 3000 cycles at 100% DOD and the pylontech is 6000 cycles at 95%. Obviously the batteries are still usable after these cycles you just lose a bit of capacity. You can also choose a lower DOD to get more cycles out of them. But all of this info is not always easy to get for each battery, so just using the above cycles shows that the Pylontech is actually cheaper per kWh over the lifetime of the battery.
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I am glad that you mentioned the lifetime. Apart from @Mike Hoxbig very simple and clear cost analysis, I look at it this way:

The Hubble AM-2's specs are 5.5k with 5.5K capacity usable, the warranty covers 3000 cycles at 100% DoD and charge / discharge at 1C (100A / 4800-5000W ) for 10 years. 16,500kW guaranteed over 3000 cycles, over 10 years.
  • Do these things to a Pylontech, and your warranty is gone by-bye (i.e. no life);
  • Even one single battery on its own can deliver excellent performance, lower barrier of entry;
  • The lifetime (and cycles) can be increased with judicious use, like limiting DoD, temperature and charge and discharge rates.
The Pylontech UP5000's specs are 4.8K with 4.56K usable, the warranty covers 4500 cycles at 95% DoD, charge / discharge at 0.5C (50A / 2400-2500W for 5 years. 20,520kW guaranteed over 4500 cycles, over 5 years.
  • As per warranty, you must
    • use it is an ESS system, and
    • it must cycled on a daily basis, so not exactly a great battery to use for loadshedding only, unless you want to pay 20-30% more for your electricity. and
    • it must be used at the specified temperature (25 degrees C). Show me a residential install that has powerful enough climate control to do that?
  • A single battery cannot deliver a reasonable discharge rate for a baby 5K inverter, so it needs at least one friend. That's only OK if you can afford multiple of them, which increases the barrier to entry on a low-budget loadshedding system.
  • Even if you cycle everyday, how do you use 20,520kW over 5 years?
I understand that we all are different, and have different needs and reasons for choosing the batteries that we love. This is mine, and I have first-hand ownership experience of both. Between the two, the Hubble is far more flexible, and able to adapt its utility to a wider range of use-cases. It also does it far more economically than Pylontech.
 
RonSwanson said:
The Hubble AM-2's specs are 5.5k with 5.5K capacity usable, the warranty covers 3000 cycles at 100% DoD and charge / discharge at 1C (100A / 4800-5000W ) for 10 years. 16,500kW guaranteed over 3000 cycles, over 10 years.
  • Do these things to a Pylontech, and your warranty is gone by-bye (i.e. no life);
  • Even one single battery on its own can deliver excellent performance, lower barrier of entry;
  • The lifetime (and cycles) can be increased with judicious use, like limiting DoD, temperature and charge and discharge rates.
The Pylontech UP5000's specs are 4.8K with 4.56K usable, the warranty covers 4500 cycles at 95% DoD, charge / discharge at 0.5C (50A / 2400-2500W for 5 years. 20,520kW guaranteed over 4500 cycles, over 5 years.
  • As per warranty, you must
    • use it is an ESS system, and
    • it must cycled on a daily basis, so not exactly a great battery to use for loadshedding only, unless you want to pay 20-30% more for your electricity. and
    • it must be used at the specified temperature (25 degrees C). Show me a residential install that has powerful enough climate control to do that?
  • A single battery cannot deliver a reasonable discharge rate for a baby 5K inverter, so it needs at least one friend. That's only OK if you can afford multiple of them, which increases the barrier to entry on a low-budget loadshedding system.
  • Even if you cycle everyday, how do you use 20,520kW over 5 years?
Click to expand...

Sizing batteries to requirements and budgets are important but many battery claims are so far untested.

When looking at warranty as differentiator all battery warranties are written in a way that give the manufacturer/supplier get-out-of-jail-free options - whether they will use it in relation to claimed capacity will likely only really be known 5-10 years from now.

Do you perhaps have a link to the hubble guarantee of 16 500kWh per battery? (I only see reference to cycle number).

Also, with regard to temperature I suspect in your claim about the pylontech needing to operate at exactly 25 degrees C you are actually referring to the standardised temperature required during testing of a disputed warranty claim? I do not see reference to the temperature requirement during normal use in the warranty or manual.

Pylon_Temp_Test.jpg

and out of interest the hubble AM-2 warranty also refers to 25 degrees C.

Hubble_Temp.jpg
 
one poster said:
Do you perhaps have a link to the hubble guarantee of 16 500kWh per battery? (I only see reference to cycle number).
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Where exactly did I state that the Hubble warranty states that? It is a simple result of the multiplication of guaranteed cycles and usable capacity. Are you able to read and comprehend simple English, and perform rudimentary mathematics?
Nice strawman.

one poster said:
Also, with regard to temperature I suspect in your claim about the pylontech needing to operate at exactly 25 degrees C you are actually referring to the standardised temperature required during testing of a disputed warranty claim? I do not see reference to the temperature requirement during normal use in the warranty or manual.
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I read what the Pylontech warranty states:
1650490092400.png

The Pylontech Product Manual, "design life" and "cycle life" are both tied to 25 degrees C:
1650490226000.png

You do not see the reference to temperature in the warranty nor the manual? Clearly then, you are blind, because from the warranty document of the Pylontech UP5000:

1650490911800.png
one poster said:
and out of interest the hubble AM-2 warranty also refers to 25 degrees C.
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Now you are simply talking kak. From the Hubble AM-2 warranty:
1650491866400.png

Furthermore:

1650492043800.png

So please listen do your research properly next time.
 

Attachments

  • hubble_lithium_am-2_warranty_v7-1 (1).pdf
    367 KB · Views: 4
  • pylontech UP5000 Spec 1202.pdf
    5.5 MB · Views: 1
  • Pylontech_product_warranty_UP5000 serie-Standard_2020.pdf
    462.9 KB · Views: 1
RonSwanson said:
Where exactly did I state that the Hubble warranty states that? It is a simple result of the multiplication of guaranteed cycles and usable capacity. Are you able to read and comprehend simple English, and perform rudimentary mathematics?
Nice strawman.


I read what the Pylontech warranty states:
View attachment 1295486

The Pylontech Product Manual, "design life" and "cycle life" are both tied to 25 degrees C:
View attachment 1295488

You do not see the reference to temperature in the warranty nor the manual? Clearly then, you are blind, because from the warranty document of the Pylontech UP5000:

View attachment 1295490

Now you are simply talking kak. From the Hubble AM-2 warranty:
View attachment 1295492

Furthermore:

View attachment 1295494

So please listen do your research properly next time.
Click to expand...

Recommendation is, 25c - no higher than 35c. However, warranty is only void, if its 55c or higher.

So the claim made that we need to keep them at 25c to keep warranty, is completely false. As per your quoted source.
 
RonSwanson said:
Where exactly did I state that the Hubble warranty states that? It is a simple result of the multiplication of guaranteed cycles and usable capacity. Are you able to read and comprehend simple English, and perform rudimentary mathematics?
Click to expand...

Point taken, hubble does not guarantee 16500kWh per battery. My rudimentary mathematics suggests that cells that degrade due to calendar aging and the effects of charge cycles are unlikely to lead to 3000*5.5=16500. The cycle life chart for the BYD cells suggests 80% remaining capacity by roughly 3000 cycles. The claimed reserve capacity could help. As said this is not tested yet.

Reason why I asked about hubble stating an energy number is because that is for me the most unambiguous way to state what is to be expected from a battery - so that would have been a very welcome change had they stated that.

RonSwanson said:
The Pylontech Product Manual, "design life" and "cycle life" are both tied to 25 degrees C:
Click to expand...

RonSwanson said:
You do not see the reference to temperature in the warranty nor the manual? Clearly then, you are blind, because from the warranty document of the Pylontech UP5000:
/snip pic
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My eye sight is deteriorating but I do not see a requirement that the battery must be maintained at exactly 25ºC as you claimed. Your highlighted text from the warranty also refers to temperature range. The manual indicates an install environment between 0-50ºC with an optimal range between 0-40ºC. Due to the effects of temperature on things like resistance it is fairly standard to indicate under what conditions reference numbers were obtained (e.g. >4500 cycles @ 25ºC) but yes, like I said all warranties leave many possible outs. So, while it is possible that there will be hundreds or thousands of claims denied because the batteries were used at temperatures other than exactly 25ºC, I doubt this will be the reality.

RonSwanson said:
Now you are simply talking kak. From the Hubble AM-2 warranty:

Furthermore:

View attachment 1295494
Click to expand...


Hubble_Temp_Warranty.jpg

Thank you for positng the more recent document versions. My reference was the V5 document from December 2021. These do seem to change often. The V7 hubble warranty you posted is likely also superseded by now since it is at odds with the AM-2 manual with respect to the requirement for cell balancing. Your posted warranty still refers to 100% charge every 14 days while the manual now specifies every 5 days but preferably every day. So hubble is getting much closer to the daily cycle requirement of the pylontechs.

Manual_Balance.jpg
 
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