The Cruelest Cut: Capped for life at age zero

nthdimension

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it doesnt harden up like like a fingertip or the heal of your foot. :) Also, there is an abundance of sensitivity.
I've found that if I walk barefoot a lot my feet toughen up, but they do not lose sensitivity.
 

Mr TB

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YOU DON'T OWN YOUR CHILDREN, THEY OWN THEM SELVES


ACCORDING TO THE PAGES OF INFORMATION (you've ignored) AND CLEAR REASONS WHY YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS, THE FORESKIN RANKS VERY HIGHLY, AND IT SHOULD NOT BE UP TO YOU, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF CUT OUT ONE OF YOUR EYES AS A BABY, WELL MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE SAME OR WORSE TRUMA WHICH THEIR PARENTS HAVE CAUSED THEM, THEIR ARE ALSO THOSE (LIKE YOU) WHO LIKE PEOPLE WHOSE EYES HAVE BEEN REMOVED(STOLEN, JUST LIKE CIRCUMSISSION ) AT BIRTH, DON'T KNOW WHAT LIFE WITH TWO EYES WOULD BE LIKE.
I HOPE YOU ARE SURE, AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT

They may own themselves then if you see it that way mate... but from the very first moment he/she can move he/she will work to earn he/she's right to stay in my house mate...
 

Neo

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Do i understand Mr TB, is he saying that Mr TB has the right to do anything with babies, even cut their hands off so that they may not look at masturbate, or cut their ears off so that they may not hear 'devil music'.:sick:

So you see your Children as slaves, Mr TB; I see children as a continuation of your own legacy and appreciation of evolution. So you want a continuation of slave, or min wage workers.
They should respect you as you respect them. They too may and, mostly are going to raise their children, and may most likely treat their children with the same respect, I don't think we may evolve far with people like Mr TB, as Mr TB does not believe in evolution.:(

And... Mr TB... mate... what does this have to circumcision?:confused:

Mr. TB had a tough time as a kid and do not have children of his own, so I would not pay much attention to his ravings. But at 46 you'd think some compassion for children would have appeared.
 

Claymore

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Hold the truck.

Either i missed something or I don't know.

The sensitive part is the "Head". Now I would assume that the head of a circumcised man becomes hard and dry ? Am I correct ?

It depends on what you call "sensitivity". There are several different types of nerve receptors. The head of the penis (the glans) mostly contains pressure receptors, and not at a very high density. The foreskin, by comparison, is densely populated with fine-touch receptors (the same type you'll find on the palm of your hand). So really two different types of sensation.

When without protection, the head keratinises: it forms extra layers of hardened skill as protection. This does reduce sensitivity; that's been shown in a number of studies.
 

Debbie

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Ok, so I know I don't have a penis (I looked), but maybe that means I can be more objective about the circumcision issue. Also, as a consequence of my gender and heterosexual nature I've probably been in contact with more penises than most of you in this thread (unless you're gay, of course). So read if you care for a female's perspective.

1. Cleanliness
Circumcised penises tend to be cleaner and, er, smell nicer. Uncircumcised does not necessarily mean dirty though.

2. Doing the deed
Prefer uncircumcised. Feels different. Better. Easier. Nicer.

Hold the truck.

Either i missed something or I don't know.

The sensitive part is the "Head". Now I would assume that the head of a circumcised man becomes hard and dry ? Am I correct ?

3. "Hard and dry"?

Yes, circumcised tends to be noticably drier and the skin harder, and from what I can tell, less sensitive.

All in all, imo, uncircumcised is better, but it's not really a big issue to me. I'd compare it to having small tatoos- imo, better without, but if you've got then so be it.

If I ever have kids, I would choose for them not to be circumcised, even though I come from a family where boys are circumcised.

Anyhow - you're all entitled to your opinions. Said my peace and I'm done.

"piece" bwana :p
 

w1z4rd

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I've found that if I walk barefoot a lot my feet toughen up, but they do not lose sensitivity.

Have you seen the feet of people who dont wear shoes? Its impossible to "toughen up" and not "loose sensitivity". As toughening up is the process of loosing sensitivity.

Also, its not a good idea to make an internal organ an external one. and loose 20 000 nerve endings in the process.
 

w1z4rd

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They may own themselves then if you see it that way mate... but from the very first moment he/she can move he/she will work to earn he/she's right to stay in my house mate...

Im siffed out to see you accept "payment" in body parts.
 

nthdimension

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Have you seen the feet of people who dont wear shoes? Its impossible to "toughen up" and not "loose sensitivity". As toughening up is the process of loosing sensitivity.

Also, its not a good idea to make an internal organ an external one. and loose 20 000 nerve endings in the process.
You're assuming the sensitivity remains constant. Why should it? Toughening up involves the foot adding protective material so it is less easily damaged. If muscles adapt to requirements why should nerves not adjust to requirements? I know from experience of walking barefoot and from wearing boots with thicker soles that the foot adjusts its sensitivity.

For all I know 20k is a millionth of all nerve endings in the body. 20,000 sounds like a nice big number, but it may be insignificant. Does every foreskin have the same number of nerves regardless of size? Is every male equally sensitive in this area? Some people are claiming the glans contains no touch sensitive nerves which is definitely nonsense.

2. Doing the deed
Prefer uncircumcised. Feels different. Better. Easier. Nicer.
From a female perspective a restored foreskin is probably as good as an original one. From what I have read it looks almost the same, restores the glans to its mucosal state and moves in the same manner. From the male perspective the nerve endings lost cannot be restored, but presumably any in the remaining skin are replicated when the new skin is created.

If I ever have kids, I would choose for them not to be circumcised, even though I come from a family where boys are circumcised.
In the past it was done almost automatically. It is a bizarre practice and we know today that there are few good reasons to do it.
 

w1z4rd

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You're assuming the sensitivity remains constant. Why should it? Toughening up involves the foot adding protective material so it is less easily damaged. If muscles adapt to requirements why should nerves not adjust to requirements? I know from experience of walking barefoot and from wearing boots with thicker soles that the foot adjusts its sensitivity.

I understand but disagree to your perspective. As a generalization think of a skilled surgeons hands. While I am sure he could work with them well do you think he would have the same results if he worked with hands that handled bricks and car parts all day? I think you might.

For all I know 20k is a millionth of all nerve endings in the body. 20,000 sounds like a nice big number, but it may be insignificant. Does every foreskin have the same number of nerves regardless of size? Is every male equally sensitive in this area? Some people are claiming the glans contains no touch sensitive nerves which is definitely nonsense.

Think what you wish. You can justify it any way you want. I find every bit of my nervous system important thanks. Lets chop that bit off! I mean... we only got 5 thousand nerve endings in that finger. What do we need it or them for?

I cant reconcile in my mind the reasoning behind your logic or justifications. Im dumb that way :(
 

nthdimension

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While I am sure he could work with them well do you think he would have the same results if he worked with hands that handled bricks and car parts all day?
It would only matter if it influenced their fine motor control. Since there is no reason to believe his nerves would not adapt to compensate we have no reason to believe that any thickening of the skin would reduce his skin sensitivity (if it did you would never find any surgeons doing any physical activity or exercise that required them to use their hands).

Still anyone who has been circumcised can recreate a covering with some time and effort so that aspect is completely fixable.

If 20,000 is a tiny number then it does not have a major influence on the sexual or other experience of someone who has already been circumcised. The claim is that these men have had their sex and general lives ruined. If someone had accidentally lost one fingertip would we spend time convincing them that their life is ruined, and do our best to drive them to hate themselves and their life?

And so far I find no information on how many nerves are lost or how much difference it really makes, especially given that men have widely varying foreskin sizes and in circumcision there is clearly often a lot of the inner foreskin still left, albeit now running down the shaft.

or justifications
Probably because there are no justifications. I haven't expressed any support for circumcision.
 

w1z4rd

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As I said, I disagree with you. Bwana I think got it right about our POV'`s. I prefer to use deduction rather than assumption when trying to work stuff out.
 

Claymore

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For all I know 20k is a millionth of all nerve endings in the body. 20,000 sounds like a nice big number, but it may be insignificant. Does every foreskin have the same number of nerves regardless of size? Is every male equally sensitive in this area? Some people are claiming the glans contains no touch sensitive nerves which is definitely nonsense.

The glans does - but in very low density; most are pressure-sensitive receptors. The foreskin, by comparison, has among the highest concentrations on nerve receptors on the male body, most of them being fine-touch receptors.
 

Necuno

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Ok, so I know I don't have a penis (I looked), but maybe that means I can be more objective about the circumcision issue. Also, as a consequence of my gender and heterosexual nature I've probably been in contact with more penises than most of you in this thread (unless you're gay, of course). So read if you care for a female's perspective.

1. Cleanliness
Circumcised penises tend to be cleaner and, er, smell nicer. Uncircumcised does not necessarily mean dirty though.

2. Doing the deed
Prefer uncircumcised. Feels different. Better. Easier. Nicer.



3. "Hard and dry"?

Yes, circumcised tends to be noticably drier and the skin harder, and from what I can tell, less sensitive.

All in all, imo, uncircumcised is better, but it's not really a big issue to me. I'd compare it to having small tatoos- imo, better without, but if you've got then so be it.

If I ever have kids, I would choose for them not to be circumcised, even though I come from a family where boys are circumcised.



"piece" bwana :p

well there you have it.
 

Xarog

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You dont see a difference between the practice of female genital mutilation and male circumcision? :confused:
There is absolutely no qualitive difference between the two acts. They are BOTH genital mutilation and as such, anyone who violates another person thus without a *truly* sound medical reason deserves nothing less than to be charged with assault with intent to do grevious bodily harm. And by a true medical problem, I mean rare cases where the foreskin is too tight and causes problems with urination (though that can be far more easily solved by splitting the foreskin rather that complete removal.)

However I haven't come across any women who have undergone female circumcision who dont feel that they were mutilated.
Then you need to get out a bit more. There are women around who have had voluntary clitoridectomies and have been satisfied with the procedure and its results. Similarly there have been men that have been entirely unsatisfied with their experiences. But in niether case does this justify either FGM or MGM.

This whole line of argument is pointless - unless you undergo circumcision or I have a reversal neither of us can possibly argue from a position of understanding.
What's there to understand? It's a violation of the human body. Furthermore, restorations merely stretch the skin on the shaft of the penis, they do not restore the 20 000 nerve endings which are lost, which is the largest number of nerves on any part of the penis.

Still anyone who has been circumcised can recreate a covering with some time and effort so that aspect is completely fixable.
See above.

If 20,000 is a tiny number then it does not have a major influence on the sexual or other experience of someone who has already been circumcised. The claim is that these men have had their sex and general lives ruined. If someone had accidentally lost one fingertip would we spend time convincing them that their life is ruined, and do our best to drive them to hate themselves and their life?
No, we would hopefully spend our time convincing people to stop the barbaric mutilation in the interests of saving as many people from suffering such an injury.
 
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nthdimension

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The skin is not stretched. New skin grows. It is also not possible to remove the entire foreskin without making erection impossible, so except in cases of excessive circumcision the new skin that grows, while not exactly the same, will include the same nerve endings as the remaining foreskin. In general most of the frenulum remains as well.

I did some more reading and it seems that most studies find that the circumcised and uncircumcised have the same amount of keratin in the glans.
 

Xarog

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The skin is not stretched. New skin grows.
By putting the existing skin under tension, i.e. stretching it.

It is also not possible to remove the entire foreskin without making erection impossible, so except in cases of excessive circumcision the new skin that grows, while not exactly the same, will include the same nerve endings as the remaining foreskin.
Rubbish. those nerve endings sit in a specialised part near the tip of the foreskin called the ridged band; foreskin restoration does not and cannot restore this specialised and unique tissue.

In general most of the frenulum remains as well.
That would be the frenulum that disintegrates before or around puberty through apoptosis?
 

bwana

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There is absolutely no qualitive difference between the two acts.
If you cant see the difference between the tradition method of using an often dull knife or even a shard of a beer bottle to perform a clitoridectomies and the removal of a foreskin in a sterile hospital environment then I'm not the one who needs to get out more.
and why is it often done?
What is the "rationale" for this torture? The practice is often cited as puberty rite in late childhood or early adolescence. The removal of the clitoris is believed to keep a girl chaste because the clitoris is sensitive to sexual stimulation. It is feared that girls are otherwise consumed with sexual desires. Some groups in rural Egypt and in the northern Sudan, however, perform clitoridectomies primarily because it is a social custom that has been passed down through the generations from ancient times or because they perceive it as part of their faith in Islam, although the Koran itself does not require it.
 

Xarog

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If you cant see the difference between the tradition method of using an often dull knife or even a shard of a beer bottle to perform a clitoridectomies and the removal of a foreskin in a sterile hospital environment then I'm not the one who needs to get out more.
Does it matter if I slit your throat with a beer bottle or if I do it in a sterile hospital enviroment?

Mutilation is mutilation. It's a violation of a person's human rights and in that light there is absolutely zero difference between either procedure.

and why is it often done?
Did you know that in the Victorian era, they used to apply carbolic acid to the clitoris to discourage masturbation? Did you also know that that's when this BS about circumcision being 'healthy' first came about? Both measures were intended to achieve the same effect; to enforce some insane and perverse idea that sex and sexual stimulation was inherently bad/wrong.

Is it really any surprise that the bastion of puritannical Christianity, America, is the lone western country that still routinely practices male circumcision?
 

Keeper

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i'm sure if someone did this to himself and videotaped it, it would be banned off of youtube.

so if we cannot see this, how can it be legal to do this to someone else?

"No son, tattoo's are bad - but you can cut your d!kcs skin off if you choose?"
 

WJA

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Remember Cut

I keep reading about how cruel or traumatic it must be for infants so if I might ask the guys who were shorn at a young age what they recall of the procedure because despite all of the pain and suffering I must have endured I simply dont remember it.

I have a memory of my circumcision.
Since my earliest memories as a child, whenever I started becoming ill, had any physical trauma or injury, my dreams would be dominated by a multicoloured psychedelic train that used to chase me in my dreams. I still have that dream, and when I do I know that an illness is taking hold.
My body and sub-concious mind also remember the trauma. I sometimes wake up at night in abject fear and terror and an almost uncontrollable flight urge.

As these nightly terrors were increasing in frequency and intensity, I recently consulted my GP, who referred me to a psychologist. In working with him, I have finally been able to put a name to the terror - my circumcision as a 3 week old boy. Using regression therapy, I am working towards connecting with this invasion of my body, and processing the effect that it has had on me for all of my life. Hopefully this will bring an end to my terror.

So, yes, I remember being cut. And there are many men like me who have experienced these memories.

Cutting a baby boy is traumatic, painful, invasive and cruel.

Circumcision = BAD
 
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