The energy solution for South Africa is DC power.

[Seriously]

Yes things advanced quiet a bit. Black&white crt needed in 1995 to use 12V battery. Now the thin color tv comes in 12V 1A DC. Who ever thought we would get support without even asking for it. No mate, there was no total solution. That's your straw man which you're still not comprehending. Like your JW.

And you still do not answer to the facts you you wilfully misrepresented and sidestepped facts of reality as well as ignored calculations that proved the idiocy of your whole "[-]debate[/-]debacle" . Everyone told you its not feasible but you continually trolled and ranted on just like in your PD threads.

Peace be on you. Solar is the way to go but 12VDC reticulation is a farce. Hi power High voltage Solar panels with Inverters is an acceptable solution with maybe some additional high power LED's with the correct drivers feeding of the batteries direct for emergency lighting only.

As for your repetitive Lithium battery question....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems

Now imagine a domestic battery room.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/675527-Property-Renovations

 

[Swa]

And you still do not answer to the facts you you wilfully misrepresented and sidestepped facts of reality as well as ignored calculations that proved the idiocy of your whole "[-]debate[/-]debacle" . Everyone told you its not feasible but you continually trolled and ranted on just like in your PD threads.

Peace be on you. Solar is the way to go but 12VDC reticulation is a farce. Hi power High voltage Solar panels with Inverters is an acceptable solution with maybe some additional high power LED's with the correct drivers feeding of the batteries direct for emergency lighting only.

You're still dodging the real info given and substituting it with your straw man.

As for your repetitive Lithium battery question....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems

Now imagine a domestic battery room.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/675527-Property-Renovations

http://www.calicorp.com/articles/batteries-hazards.html

SLAs aren't really safer in totality. As for your concern about Lithiums, there are only a few reports of cell phones and the like "exploding" and they are of a suspicious nature. Most cases turn out to be where they actually ignited other materials. Considering the large amount of these batteries in use they appear to have a very good safety record if not one that is better than SLAs. The industry has dubbed the "vent with fire" phrase but I doubt anyone has ever seen it under usage conditions. The Boeing issue was never resolved and the numbers don't equate with the large number of batteries in use without any serious problems.

There are also other options being invented like these

 

[itareanlnotani]

As for your repetitive Lithium battery question....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems

Now imagine a domestic battery room.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/675527-Property-Renovations

Have to correct you there. Liithium Ion != LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
One is safe. The other one less so

I recommend the CALB LiFePO4's (they're what I'm going to be using). Just need to not overcharge or overdischarge, and thats about it.

 

[Seriously]

You're still dodging the real info given and substituting it with your straw man.

Then show them as All the info you gave was BS nonsense so repeat the real "facts" and I will show you like I did with the PC power supply and your 30Amps 12DC over a 2.5mm2 wire fallacy that you have no clue what you are talking about!

 

[Seriously]

Have to correct you there. Liithium Ion != LiPoS04 (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
One is safe. The other one less so

I recommend the CALB LiPoSo4's (they're what I'm going to be using). Just need to not overcharge or overdischarge, and thats about it.

Thanks for the info! Good to know.

Can you source them locally yet?

 

[Budza]

Loosely followed this thread, so not sure if this has been answered before..

What are the losses in converting DC-AC?

What are the losses converting AC-DC?

EG: Solar -> Battery -> AC for house plug etc -> laptop power brick (AC -> DC) ?

What appliances / devices can be run directly off a DC battery bank to cut out those losses? Almost everything battery powered?

 

[Seriously]

You're still dodging the real info given and substituting it with your straw man.


http://www.calicorp.com/articles/batteries-hazards.html

SLAs aren't really safer in totality. As for your concern about Lithiums, there are only a few reports of cell phones and the like "exploding" and they are of a suspicious nature. Most cases turn out to be where they actually ignited other materials. Considering the large amount of these batteries in use they appear to have a very good safety record if not one that is better than SLAs. The industry has dubbed the "vent with fire" phrase but I doubt anyone has ever seen it under usage conditions. The Boeing issue was never resolved and the numbers don't equate with the large number of batteries in use without any serious problems.

There are also other options being invented like these

The technology has its limits. It is best suited for slow and steady operation, not rapidly charging and discharging large amounts of power as some utilities require. And while the batteries are cheaper than other kinds, pairing them with solar panels still can’t beat the economics of conventional power plants in most areas. That is why Whitacre is focusing initially on regions without an existing electricity grid

Everything have some drawbacks but interesting anyway!

 

[xumwun]

You're still dodging the real info given and substituting it with your straw man.

Which is what exactly?

 

[itareanlnotani]

Can you source them locally yet?

No local manufacturers. I've sorted out the paperwork eg new MSDS test report for what I'm using, so can export from China in the capacities I'm looking at.

 

[Seriously]

No local manufacturers. I've sorted out the paperwork eg new MSDS test report for what I'm using, so can export from China in the capacities I'm looking at.

Thanks. Does that mean you will be importing? Resale?

 

[Swa]

Have to correct you there. Liithium Ion != LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
One is safe. The other one less so

Less safe != unsafe

I recommend the CALB LiFePO4's (they're what I'm going to be using). Just need to not overcharge or overdischarge, and thats about it.

And there you are already highlighting a problem. You have to subject them to limit, like you have to do with every type of battery. Not that I'm against them.

Then show them as All the info you gave was BS nonsense so repeat the real "facts" and I will show you like I did with the PC power supply and your 30Amps 12DC over a 2.5mm2 wire fallacy that you have no clue what you are talking about!

They are there in my post. You keep dodging them because they show your BS of a 600V supply being better. You also seem to like going around in circles.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Have a read of Wikipedia., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate (although you're not fond of reading I know )

LiFePO4 have the following advantages (excerpted)

LFP batteries and ordinary lithium batteries are both environmentally friendly. The major differences between these two are that the LFP batteries do not have such safety concerns as overheating and explosion, that the LFP batteries have 4 to 5 times longer cycle lifetimes than the lithium batteries, that the LFP batteries have 8 to 10 times higher discharge power than the lithium batteries (which can produce an instant high current), and that the LFP batteries have, under the same energy density, 30 to 50% less weight than the lithium batteries.

 

[Swa]

Which is what exactly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
It's a fallacy or i o w a argument where the conclusion doesn't follow from the argument. In this case it was stated that low voltage DC is practical for low power applications. Seriously then brings up calculations with high power devices to show that it is impractical for those applications and applies the conclusion to the low power devices as well.

His argument is also invalid on the fact that high voltage DC is practical for high power applications. So his argument doesn't rule out DC for a whole solution as he seems to think.

 

[Swa]

Have a read of Wikipedia., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate (although you're not fond of reading I know )

LiFePO4 have the following advantages (excerpted)

I didn't say they don't have advantages. Only that Li-ion isn't as unsafe as it's made out to be.

 

[Swa]

Loosely followed this thread, so not sure if this has been answered before..

What are the losses in converting DC-AC?

What are the losses converting AC-DC?

EG: Solar -> Battery -> AC for house plug etc -> laptop power brick (AC -> DC) ?

What appliances / devices can be run directly off a DC battery bank to cut out those losses? Almost everything battery powered?

DC-AC is accomplished through a inverter. As was mentioned in the thread you won't get better than about 95% efficiency for a high end expensive inverter. Meaning you lose about 5% power. Regular inverter about 90%.

AC-DC is even less efficient in most devices. Typical transformers are in the region of 90% efficiency but cheap ones which you are likely to find in things like cell phone chargers can be as bad as 80% and in extreme cases a transformer can reach 50%.

To run low power devices directly off DC from a battery will in most cases result in about 90% efficiency. That's the efficiency of the AC-DC transformers themselves.

So I'd say all battery powered devices like cellphones and laptops plus some devices like the newer TVs and LED lights.

 

[Seriously]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
It's a fallacy or i o w a argument where the conclusion doesn't follow from the argument. In this case it was stated that low voltage DC is practical for low power applications. Seriously then brings up calculations with high power devices to show that it is impractical for those applications and applies the conclusion to the low power devices as well.

His argument is also invalid on the fact that high voltage DC is practical for high power applications. So his argument doesn't rule out DC for a whole solution as he seems to think.

Stop talking BS> You claimed that a home can be converted to 12VDC by using the existing electrical wiring in situ as the wire can handle double the current using DC as opposed to using 220V AC. You punted it was due to the skin effect on copper using the 220V AC. I have shown and proven to you it's absolute horseschit as for a 360Watt appliance you need a 7.5mm diam wire for the load you claimed. With 220V AC the calculated load is closer to 3KW. I also showed you that at 50 HZ there is no skin effect to be concerned of with 2.5 mm2 standard home wiring.

As usual you make claims and as you get caught out you alter your story by thumbsucking more BS and then talk in circular arguments to try and convince others that you had a different meaning. Now you claim that the idea was to cut out all high power devices, like computers, Hifi's, Surround sound systems, hair dryers, etc..

So lets go camping at home and lets cut out all conveniences. At the same time only plug in one device with wattage far less than 360Watt at any one time. The rest of the family must queue in line to use their conveniencies or appliances.

That makes someone doing it a blatant liar in my books! Thats a trait all conman and politicians use very well. Spin Doctor extraordinaire.

By the way I have used your own example of 360Watt to prove to you your whole argument and claim is a total fallacy.

 

[Seriously]

I didn't say they don't have advantages. Only that Li-ion isn't as unsafe as it's made out to be.

Strange that over many threads you kept on asking why those batteries are not available locally sort of punting them as total solution . Now you yourself argue against their claimed performance specifications and questions how safe they are and punting another battery which are manufactured using pill box equipment as total solution even after I showed you they claim it could not handle deep cycling at all. Oh, yeah they shipped 100 units according to the info you supplied)

BTW I found a local supplier with LiFePO4 batteries in stock. A total solution.

PS: Not even your God can understand you or your motives, no wonder everyone hates your posts in PD, Christians alike.

 

[Seriously]

DC-AC is accomplished through a inverter. As was mentioned in the thread you won't get better than about 95% efficiency for a high end expensive inverter. Meaning you lose about 5% power. Regular inverter about 90%.

AC-DC is even less efficient in most devices. Typical transformers are in the region of 90% efficiency but cheap ones which you are likely to find in things like cell phone chargers can be as bad as 80% and in extreme cases a transformer can reach 50%.

To run low power devices directly off DC from a battery will in most cases result in about 90% efficiency. That's the efficiency of the AC-DC transformers themselves.

So I'd say all battery powered devices like cellphones and laptops plus some devices like the newer TVs and LED lights.

Quiet a few misconceptions in there again. Sure the efficiency of the older type AC to DC power supplies was low due to the bulky size of the components to handle the heat to account for the voltage drop from 220VAC to DC. In general transformers were used with linear electronics. In modern day times that is not the case and efficiencies of high in the nineties can be achieved (as high as 97%+) by using high frequency Switch Mode Power Supplies. SMPS. (Google some and learn) There are no way you can get the same efficiencies going 12VDC-AC or DC-DC as you would get using AC-DC with SMPS. (To know why google some more) If you really know how a computer PC Supply works you will understand.

 

[Seriously]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
His argument is also invalid on the fact that high voltage DC is practical for high power applications. So his argument doesn't rule out DC for a whole solution as he seems to think.

Here again you are trying to deflect from reality. Converting from 220VAC to DC direct have very small losses by just rectifying 220VAC to 400V DC as a DC bus, this immediately gives you the required level of DC for most consumer appliances. Then using SMPS to convert that 400VDC to any other xDC voltage can be achieved easily with small components that can be very efficiently done with SMPS designs which size is fairly easily scaled depending on the load required. Therefore the reason rather use 220VAC as home reticulation on standard 2.5MM2 wire and convert the 220VAC to 5VDC with an SMPS which a simple and effective solution directly at the point where the load is required; like charging your cell phone in your bedroom. Thus 220VAC low amps in 5VDC higher amps out at 97% efficiency. If you want to do that using direct 12V DC you will not get the same efficiency as the DC-DC conversion will be less efficient and the phone charger larger depending how you do it all depending on the electronics design and whether its digital or linear electronics in the design. If you go direct to 12VDC you will have to use thicker wire as I have shown you numerous times based on the load required. A simple 360Watt appliance or device will require a 7MM dia or 33MM2 wire to operate. Thats for one device. Totally impractical and illogical for a home dwelling.



Again you detract from your original claims that an existing home can be converted to 12VDC without major rewiring and without any current or wattage limitations in fact you claimed you can double up the amperage in the standard 2.5mm2 home wire circuits using 12VDC instead of the 220VAC which was proven and shown to you as absolute garbage.

 

[Seriously]

They are there in my post. You keep dodging them because they show your BS of a 600V supply being better. You also seem to like going around in circles.

Another lie, this is becoming so standard for you even in the PD sections. I was shown to you that the choice Isheed_cn made to use a 600V high power solar panels instead of 12VDC was based on sound engineering principles by expert companies as a standard. One of their main reasons was to save on installation costs as it is clear and proven to you that sending high voltage DC at high loads to supply a complete dwelling with the required power(watts) requires thinner and cheaper copper cables than supplying the same power (watts) for that same distance at 12VDC.

Your fallacy argument to solve the problem was that everyone should wait until new appliances are designed that will cut out these high power appliances we use and wait for the world to design low power appliances that works directly of 12VDC and legislation must be changed. You randomly googled for such appliances like your 12V DC PC supplies and i showed you they are expensive to buy, expensive to add the required 12VDC 33MM2 or 7mm diameter wiring required which would require civil mods to route the cable and that the current standard 2.5mm2 home wiring can not accommodate the load amps required at 12VDC. Then you thumsucked another few arguments to counter that saying low power devices and thus advising laptops as the solution.

You keep on changing the goalposts.