The energy solution for South Africa is DC power.

Swa

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WHAT? Explain this jewel of a comment so we all can understand! :confused:
Quite expected that you wouldn't understand it. After all you keep seeing one extreme or the other so it's no surprise you can't see that an inverter only steps up and converts to 240VAC so most devices can step it down and convert to low voltage DC. Or like I said give me this one inverter solution that doesn't require all this stepping down. ;)

I have been told I am wrong.... Amazing since I design stuff that pays the bils.
Anyways
An inverter has always been known to me as a device that steps up a DC supply to an AC one at 50Hz

What people don't effing understand is that it is efficient to chop a high DC voltage into a lower one, NOT the other way around.
When I studied engineering I excelled at design of switched mode power supplies and regulator topologies.
No, what we are saying is that just because your way of doing it pays the bills for you doesn't make it necessarily the best and most efficient solution. Ignore the low voltage for high power devices. That is Seriously's straw man and not what was argued.

The facts remain. An inverter is inefficient unless you go for a super expensive one and then you're not going to get much more than 95% efficiency if lucky. Most devices use cheap and not efficient means to convert 240VAC to 12VDC or whatever the required voltage. What it seems people don't understand is that such a DC-AC-DC combination isn't more efficient than a DC supply.

But I guess I was wrong about my hope for humanity. I'll just leave you all with your straw men and red herrings to argue against what 2 people in this thread has already done. When the paw paw hits the fan it will be most of you left in the dark. I hope you will be trying to help those people out then with what has been paying the bills.
 

Seriously

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Quite expected that you wouldn't understand it. After all you keep seeing one extreme or the other so it's no surprise you can't see that an inverter only steps up and converts to 240VAC so most devices can step it down and convert to low voltage DC. Or like I said give me this one inverter solution that doesn't require all this stepping down.

You Seriously lost the plot and missed the boat again.

Using the 220VAC Inverter you retain all the existing high power appliances and conveniences. Think induction stoves/hobs, heaters, PC power supplies, etc. All modern efficient appliances for their use and needs.

Using the modern 220VAC consumer electronics devices which use SMPS for regulating the required low power is more economical and effective than before. Think...Cell phone chargers 150mA@220VAC input with 1Amp@5VDC output. Very few devices still use transformers and linear regulator power supplies. Only cheap China junk. See picture below.

Most devices use cheap and not efficient means to convert 240VAC to 12VDC or whatever the required voltage. What it seems people don't understand is that such a DC-AC-DC combination isn't more efficient than a DC supply.

20150127_0646592.jpg

In the above pic the 220AV get rectified in 350VDC and then produce the regulated 5VDC via a high frequency switched mosfet at high efficiency. There is no linear regulators.

In the picture the lower unit converts 12VDC to 5VDC using a similar switching mode principle.

YOU CAN USE THREE OF THE 220VAC DEVICES AS OPPOSED TO ONLY ONE OF THE 12VDC DEVICES FOR THE SAME TOTAL LOAD SUPPLY CURRENT

What you fail to understand is the load losses due to copper resistance and thus the required heavy duty large diameter copper wire required to use all the devices in a home environment will be far more costly than simply using a 220V inverter with its claimed "efficiency losses". Effective high voltage potential energy is then available and many consumer devices can be used all at the same time on standard 2.5mm2 copper wiring. No need for modifications or expensive supply wiring. There are only a few plug circuits with trip switch breakers in a home electrical DB feeding a each to few power circuits. Most people use multi plug extensions to enable them to use more devices at such plug points at any one time. Changing these feeds to 12V DC will come at a large expense requiring more circuits with thicker copper wire and bigger more robust circuit breakers or tripping electronics to service the same amount of consumer goods. There are just no solutions to overcome this reality.

No, what we are saying is that just because your way of doing it pays the bills for you doesn't make it necessarily the best and most efficient solution. Ignore the low voltage for high power devices. That is Seriously's straw man and not what was argued.

The facts remain. An inverter is inefficient unless you go for a super expensive one and then you're not going to get much more than 95% efficiency if lucky. Most devices use cheap and not efficient means to convert 240VAC to 12VDC or whatever the required voltage. What it seems people don't understand is that such a DC-AC-DC combination isn't more efficient than a DC supply.

But I guess I was wrong about my hope for humanity. I'll just leave you all with your straw men and red herrings to argue against what 2 people in this thread has already done. When the paw paw hits the fan it will be most of you left in the dark. I hope you will be trying to help those people out then with what has been paying the bills.

Your whole premise is that people should cut out their conveniences and appliances and you fail to even do calculations to proof to us why your whole argument in this thread is not unrealistic poppycock BS thumbsuck ideas. I have proven by example to you many times that using just a standard 360 Watt desktop PC that your whole argument is hogwash and not feasible. Your false claims and shoddy engineering principles is what showed everyone you do not know what you talk about and everyone left this conversation as they gave up arguing with you and you tiresome circular reasoning, that includes the OP.
 
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spiderz

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YOU CAN USE THREE OF THE 220VAC DEVICES AS OPPOSED TO ONLY ONE OF THE 12VDC DEVICES FOR THE SAME TOTAL LOAD SUPPLY CURRENT

0.15A x 220v = 33W
0.416a x 12v = 4.992W

The 12V DC unit is more efficient. :p
 

Icarium

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To be fair to the OP, his stance was that we should be using 110V DC, not 12V as has been discussed and theorised to death in the many pointless pages that followed.

Also, my cousin (Masters in EE) had quite a chuckle at this thread.
 

Seriously

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0.15A x 220v = 33W
0.416a x 12v = 4.992W

The 12V DC unit is more efficient. :p

Both unit have a capacity of 5VDC@1AMP=5Watt so the AC amps drawn will be related to the load. I will do measurements for you just to make you happy. ;)
 

Seriously

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To be fair to the OP, his stance was that we should be using 110V DC, not 12V as has been discussed and theorised to death in the many pointless pages that followed.

Also, my cousin (Masters in EE) had quite a chuckle at this thread.

My aunt is a master chef with boerekos in the kitchen (no papers) and even see laughed at this thread. She wants Swa to explain how will she be able to cook on 12VDC. :D
 

Swa

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Carry on. We're not going to try and teach you anything any more. If you actually think you can win with straw men and red herrings then so be it. The stupidity rests on you. If your aunt falls for them as well then it's best then she stays within cooking.

I read a piece a while back. Thinking about it I couldn't come up with anything that invalidated the argument. The article was mainly about photography but what the person said was that every single thing of note was invented by a hobbyist. Professional people simply don't contribute anything important in their relevant fields. It's all lay people and hobbyists that come up with revolutionary ideas and new inventions. Large companies with the financial backing to implement them then buy the ideas from the inventors. Seeing the one track in the box thinking displayed in this thread by people who claim to be the professionals I can now see why they are hampered when it comes to invention.

Take a look at Micro Inverter.
(http://energyinformative.org/are-solar-micro-inverters-better-than-central-inverters/)

Both DC & AC have their uses. You can't DC everything and AC is not always very efficient to use.
The trick is to know where to use what to give you the best solution.
That is exactly the point that was being made. Some people however just can't see that the one size forced to fit all approach isn't the best solution for everyone. Modular approaches with AC running alongside DC for the foreseeable future is what will have to happen though as countries try to get everyone on solar and renewable energy.
 

Seriously

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Carry on. [-]We're[/-]I'm not going to try and teach you anything any more..

FTFY. Thank God for that, now tell us what did you actually teach me? That 30Amps@12DC (360W), your claimed example, worked through 2.5MM2 standard copper wire? Tell us again how that works?....
 

Swa

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Yes continue to wallow in your ignorance, straw men and red herrings. And don't forget your JW hangups.
 

Seriously

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Yes continue to wallow in your ignorance, straw men and red herrings. And don't forget your JW hangups.

Clearly just like in PD you cannot substantiate any of the claims and recommendations you post with facts! you made many claims in this thread and have yet to prove anything. Reality is definitely not part and parcel of your life portfolio.
 

Seriously

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snipped garbage.

You were caught talking trash making up and changing your dream world as you tagged along. It's a shame you cannot admit that to yourself. Again I asked you to explain a few simple claims and again you can't. OH SO SAD!
 

Seriously

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0.15A x 220v = 33W
0.416a x 12v = 4.992W

The 12V DC unit is more efficient.
Both unit have a capacity of 5VDC@1AMP=5Watt so the AC amps drawn will be related to the load. I will do measurements for you just to make you happy. ;)
:p

So roughly I measured 220AC@0.018amps input for a output of 5.27V@0.350 resistive load. The regulation in this unit was terrifying with this NNB China unit to say the least, If I load 0.59A then output voltage drop to 2.76V, which is probably due to the lack of digital control.

So on the DC-DC unit with slightly better regulation, If I load 0.65A then output voltage drop to 4.1V, I measured 12DC@0.2amps input for a output of 5.08V@0.330 resistive load.
 

Swa

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You were caught talking trash making up and changing your dream world as you tagged along. It's a shame you cannot admit that to yourself. Again I asked you to explain a few simple claims and again you can't. OH SO SAD!
You were the one caught chopping and changing. You still don't seem to understand that a fallacy can't win an argument for you. I pointed you to this earlier. You will be well advised to take note of what people are trying to teach you. In short if you can defeat an argument in its strongest possible sense you can consider the matter put to rest. If however you need to see it in its weakest sense attributing your own irrationality, falsehoods and logical fallacies to defeat it that really says a lot about your intellect. Sorry but I have higher standards than that.
 

Swa

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Seriously

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You were the one caught chopping and changing. You still don't seem to understand that a fallacy can't win an argument for you. I pointed you to this earlier. You will be well advised to take note of what people are trying to teach you. In short if you can defeat an argument in its strongest possible sense you can consider the matter put to rest. If however you need to see it in its weakest sense attributing your own irrationality, falsehoods and logical fallacies to defeat it that really says a lot about your intellect. Sorry but I have higher standards than that.

Like everyone else in PD and in this thread I am done with you . All you do is have verbal diarrhea in text form and have no inclination to prove what you preach neither do you possess the technical knowhow to contribute facts or reality. Chow I will not respond to your gibberish anymore!
 
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Swa

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Good, your endless fallacies were getting tiresome.
 
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