The energy solution for South Africa is DC power.

Seriously

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There you have it everyone. Well thought out debate philosophy recognised the world over is now "thought up BS." WOW. JUST WOW.



Lets see how well Swa thought.....

Most DC devices are low current. The only example is the PC but even there the situation isn't so bleak. Don't confuse a cable's AC current rating for its DC current rating. DC can handle more current than AC, in practice roughly twice as much. So a standard 15A cable can do at least 360W at 12V..

Thus 30Amps over a standard 2.5MM2 copper home wire. The minimum wire length in a typical home will be more that 10 meters

Thus I would love you to explain that little gem . But lets not fear as Swa is near and he also mentioned this gem

*sigh*
As I have pointed out the voltage drop is due to the limitations of the power supply and not the length of cable. Voltage drop through the cable is negligible and affects AC current as well..

Anyone can do the calcs. What size cable is required to draw 30 Amp's at 12VDC over 10M copper wire and what will the voltage drop be..... Hahahahah Swa failed again.

Now here is another one I enjoyed.

Most DC devices are low current. The only example is the PC but even there the situation isn't so bleak.
The highest voltage in a computer is indeed 12v, but there are a number of 12v, 5v lines.
Modern CPU's can use 100w on their own, and higher end graphics cards are often in the 300w range.
Add in other bits, hard drives / ssd's etc, and you can easily hit 500w.

500w @ 12v = 41amps. PC power supplies have multiple rails, and supply multiple 12v over parallel cables.
Are you going to run twice the cable to supply one single computer. I have explained this a couple of times relatively clearly.
If you don't understand basic concepts, suggest do some further reading of why I keep pointing it out repeatedly.
Yes you keep pointing it out but with no logic of physics behind it. I already explained this. Few PCs use 500W and those that do don't do so constantly as well..
Um no.

Impedance is what drives the voltage drop, not the source.


I specifically asked a question which would have led you to the right answers -



Power (Watts) = Voltage x Current (Amps)

500w / 12v = 40Amps.

Go visit here -> http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

House wiring is typically 12 gauge wire ( 20amp @ 240v )
Lets say 20M distance from the DB to the plug where the computer is.


Our calculator says

Voltage drop: 8.34v
Voltage drop percentage: 69.50%
Voltage at the end: 3.66v

Thats insufficient to run our 12v device. Waaaay insufficient.


Calculator for that example


Please feel free to run some calculations and learn something about what we're all trying to explain to you.

Now anyone with half a brain please help this guy out! I tried...

They range from 200W to 1000V
Oh those ones. I did not think you would have wanted me to include those in the calcs but lets do it then.
Using your calculator. Using the example of the 2.5mm2 15-20 amp standard home wiring with approximate 18.2 meter distance between source and destination of my 500W PC.

Thus 500/12=41.7 amps. Thus the calc say we need:

2AWG 33.631mm2 (7.558mm Diameter) wire required. Wow.

Now where in your proposed design does the 2.5mm2 standard home wire rated for 15Amps feature.
How are we going to get the require 7.6 mm dia wire through existing conduit
At R2000.00 - R3000.00 per pop what will the total cost be for one single PC. where are the rest of the required home appliances?

I do not think you thought your proposed design through did you? Just twaddled along selling BS information as you tagged along with any excuse popping in your head.



But this gem one took the top prize

Lightning is a very unpredictable thing. It can strike on the opposite end of the house, travel all the way to the PC wall plug, through the PSU and only damage the network controller.
What!!!!!!!


Hehe. I do not know where you studied electronics. Very selective electrons....hmmm.
 
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Seriously

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The reason this won't work cause if it was that great for the intended application it would already have been done.

#justsayin

Sure, but that little bit of wise information will fly well over the head of our resident MyBB expert engineer Swa! He knows better than the rest of the whole world and anyone else that posted in this thread proving to him the concept won't work and is not feasible due to real world limitations but as usual just like in PD his in his own little world.

Swa wants everyone to camp in his home!
 

konfab

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I (read: my phone) have done a few calculations to poke the fire in this thread.

If you wanted to install some down lighters and have them run off a 12V DC source, you could realistically run about 20 off a standard 2.5mm^2 cable.

Screenshot_2015-03-06-09-12-20.png


LEDs are these ones.
http://www.ledsales.co.za/products/view_product/640/2W-12V-Warm-White-120-degree-downlight

As I have mentioned previously, I run a couple of laptops off a deep cycle battery. Each laptop has it's own connection to the battery with a 2.5mm^2 cable. I am assuming each computer uses 90W.
Screenshot_2015-03-06-09-22-53.png



Realistically, since you will be running off solar or a battery you would want a low power appliance anyway so DC should be fine. However for things like fridges and PCs, inverting it to AC would probably make life significantly easier.
 

Seriously

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I (read: my phone) have done a few calculations to poke the fire in this thread.

If you wanted to install some down lighters and have them run off a 12V DC source, you could realistically run about 20 off a standard 2.5mm^2 cable.

LEDs are these ones.
http://www.ledsales.co.za/products/view_product/640/2W-12V-Warm-White-120-degree-downlight

As I have mentioned previously, I run a couple of laptops off a deep cycle battery. Each laptop has it's own connection to the battery with a 2.5mm^2 cable. I am assuming each computer uses 90W.


Realistically, since you will be running off solar or a battery you would want a low power appliance anyway so DC should be fine. However for things like fridges and PCs, inverting it to AC would probably make life significantly easier.

You recon 20 downlighters is enough for a domestic home to replace the existing lighting? Remember the lighting circuits in a home are limited to only a few breakers, in my case two, thus I would rather stick with the 220V LED down lights and mount as many as I see fit without the hassle of converting to 12VDC. Thats the point ......... Why? reinvent everything if the solution is readily available any way. Therefore clever people buy a inverter to supply the home with 220V power from battery storage and some idiots advocating restructuring home electrical distribution want to reinvent the wheel Like one said "In the past it was the era of AC 110/220V in the future DC 12V will be the solution and be it all" Only in his dream world of cause.
 
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Seriously

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As I have mentioned previously, I run a couple of laptops off a deep cycle battery. Each laptop has it's own connection to the battery with a 2.5mm^2 cable. I am assuming each computer uses 90W.

Did you change your existing home wiring circuit to 12VDC or did you just pull in extra cables?
 

Swa

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I (read: my phone) have done a few calculations to poke the fire in this thread.

If you wanted to install some down lighters and have them run off a 12V DC source, you could realistically run about 20 off a standard 2.5mm^2 cable.




LEDs are these ones.
http://www.ledsales.co.za/products/view_product/640/2W-12V-Warm-White-120-degree-downlight

As I have mentioned previously, I run a couple of laptops off a deep cycle battery. Each laptop has it's own connection to the battery with a 2.5mm^2 cable. I am assuming each computer uses 90W.




Realistically, since you will be running off solar or a battery you would want a low power appliance anyway so DC should be fine. However for things like fridges and PCs, inverting it to AC would probably make life significantly easier.
Yeah but this won't stop the smart asses from saying it isn't viable because of some high power appliances that were never claimed would run on it.
 

konfab

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You recon 20 downlighters is enough for a domestic home to replace the existing lighting? Remember the lighting circuits in a home are limited to only a few breakers, in my case two, thus I would rather stick with the 220V LED down lights and mount as many as I see fit without the hassle of converting to 12VDC. Thats the point ......... Why? reinvent everything if the solution is readily available any way. Therefore clever people buy a inverter to supply the home with 220V power from battery storage and some idiots advocating restructuring home electrical distribution want to reinvent the wheel Like one said "In the past it was the era of AC 110/220V in the future DC 12V will be the solution and be it all" Only in his dream world of cause.

It was a theoretical exercise to see what a single battery would be able to supply on DC. If a person only needs lights in their kitchen and lounge, then DC might be worth it.

Did you change your existing home wiring circuit to 12VDC or did you just pull in extra cables?
Extra cables, next to the wall. No point in changing over permanently as load shedding will eventually end.

Yeah but this won't stop the smart asses from saying it isn't viable because of some high power appliances that were never claimed would run on it.

As I have said, it is a case by case thing. For some people, switching to DC might be cheaper, for others buying a large inverter might be cheaper. Others, a generator would be better.

People just need to know about the different solutions and what the implementation requirements for each one are.
 

Seriously

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Yeah but this won't stop the smart asses from saying it isn't viable because of some high power appliances that were never claimed would run on it.

Neither should some idiots thumb suck solutions to look "clever" and claim on MyBB that their ideas and false information are viable solutions misleading others to believe such idiots know what they are talking about. Such idiots may cause others that do not know better lots of wasted cash and even may cause serious bodily harm and accidents like burning their homes down when the standard 2.5mm2 home wiring melts due to overload and the subsequent overheating when people draw 30Amps as claimed through their standard house wiring. This could lead to shorts and when this overload are connected to the a battery bank with inadequate DC current overload protection the batteries may explode. Such idiots never corrected their own false claims thus still misleads innocent people reading this thread!
 
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Swa

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Really? You're still busy with this crap and false logic of yours?
 

Seriously

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Really? You're still busy with this crap and false logic of yours?

You have not once explained the BS you sold here as facts as I and other continued to show you. That is the crap false logic you should set right. But we know you wont!
 

Seriously

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Exactly. He just can't stop it seems.

What exactly? Explain with details as we have already shown out all the false BS "science" you posted since the start of this thread. None of the ideas and facts you posted was either possible or feasible and so far you have not showed any practical way for anyone to use DC as a replacement solution for 220VAC in the home environment.

One poster did however convert the lighting to DC which can also be achieved just as effectively using the existing 220V AC backup inverters or even a cheap PC backup UPS.

So again once you have studied and can make some sense about reality using electricity or electronics feel free to add real solutions and not thumbsuck impractical garbage and lies.
 

Swa

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Seems you're projecting rather a lot with your "we have already shown." Perhaps you have forgotten how much of your own claims were shown to be garbage and lies. Which you never answered to in fact and only reverted to your own pot-kettle style of "reasoning" and fallacies.

Since you are obviously incapable of reading and following links I'll just post it here.
A straw man is a common reference argument and is an informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument.[1] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.

In the United Kingdom the argument is also known as an Aunt Sally, after the pub game of the same name where patrons throw sticks or battens at a model of an old woman's head.[4][5]
Contents [hide]
1 Origin
2 Structure
3 Examples
4 Contemporary work
5 See also
6 References
7 External links


Origin[edit]

U.S. President William McKinley has shot a cannon (labeled McKinley's Letter) which has involved a "straw man" and its constructors (Carl Schurz, Oswald Garrison Villard, Richard Olney) in a great explosion. Caption: S M A S H E D !, Harper's Weekly, September 22, 1900

As a fallacy, the identification and name of straw man arguments are of relatively recent date, although Aristotle makes remarks that suggest a similar concern;[6] Douglas Walton identified "the first inclusion of it we can find in a textbook as an informal fallacy" in Stuart Chase's Guides to Straight Thinking from 1956 (p. 40).[6][7] However, Hamblin's classic text Fallacies (1970) neither mentions it as a distinct type, nor even as a historical term.[6][7] The idea of "men of straw" who can be knocked down by "the lightest puff, the smallest breath of truth," erected by invaders upon a field to scare away others who might join the movement, can be found in Victoria C. Woodhull's "The Scare-Crows of Sexual Slavery," written in 1873.[8]

The origins of the term are unclear. The usage of the term in rhetoric suggests a human figure made of straw which is easily knocked down or destroyed, such as a military training dummy, scarecrow, or effigy.[9] The rhetorical technique is sometimes called an Aunt Sally in the UK, with reference to a traditional fairground game in which objects are thrown at a fixed target. One common folk etymology is that it refers to men who stood outside courthouses with a straw in their shoe in order to indicate their willingness to be a false witness.[10]
Structure[edit]

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if that were an argument against X.

This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position.

For example:
Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[3]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[2]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Examples[edit] This section possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (May 2014)


Straw man arguments often arise in public debates such as a (hypothetical) prohibition debate:
A: We should relax the laws on beer.
B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.

The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this to a position that is harder to defend, i.e., "unrestricted access to intoxicants". It is a logical fallacy because Person A never made that claim.

In a 1977 appeal of a U.S. bank robbery conviction, a prosecuting attorney said in his closing argument[11]

I submit to you that if you can't take this evidence and find these defendants guilty on this evidence then we might as well open all the banks and say, "Come on and get the money, boys", because we'll never be able to convict them.

This was a straw man designed to alarm the appeal judges; the idea that the precedent set by one case would literally make it impossible to convict any bank robbers is remote.

An example often given of a straw man is US President Richard Nixon's 1952 "Checkers speech".[12][13] When campaigning for vice president in 1952, Nixon was accused of having illegally appropriated $18,000 in campaign funds for his personal use. In a televised response, instead of addressing the funds, he spoke about another gift, a dog he had been given by a supporter:[12][13]
It was a little cocker spaniel dog, in a crate he had sent all the way from Texas, black and white, spotted, and our little girl Tricia, six years old, named it Checkers. And, you know, the kids, like all kids, loved the dog, and I just want to say this right now, that, regardless of what they say about it, we are going to keep it.

This was a straw man response; his critics had never criticized the dog as a gift or suggested he return it. This argument was successful at distracting people from the funds, and portraying his critics as nitpicking and heartless. Nixon received an outpouring of public support, remained on the ticket, and was elected by a landslide.

Christopher Tindale presents, as an example, the following passage from a draft of a bill (HCR 74) considered by the Louisiana State Legislature in 2001:[7]

Whereas, the writings of Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, promoted the justification of racism, and his books On the Origin of Species and The Descent of Man postulate a hierarchy of superior and inferior races. . . .

Therefore, be it resolved that the legislature of Louisiana does hereby deplore all instances and all ideologies of racism, does hereby reject the core concepts of Darwinist ideology that certain races and classes of humans are inherently superior to others, and does hereby condemn the extent to which these philosophies have been used to justify and approve racist practices.

Tindale comments that "the portrait painted of Darwinian ideology is a caricature, one not borne out by any objective survey of the works cited. That similar misrepresentations of Darwinian thinking have been used to justify and approve racist practices is beside the point: the position that the legislation is attacking and dismissing is a Straw Man. In subsequent debate this error was recognized, and the eventual bill omitted all mention of Darwin and Darwinist ideology."[7]
 

Swa

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continued...
Contemporary work[edit]

In 2006, Robert Talisse and Scott Aikin expanded the application and use of the straw man fallacy beyond that of previous rhetorical scholars, arguing that the straw man fallacy can take two forms, the original form in which the opponent's position is misrepresented, which they call the representative form and a new form which they call the selection form.

The selection form focuses on a partial and weaker (and easier to refute) representation of the opponent's position. Then the easier refutation of this weaker position is claimed to refute the opponent's complete position. They point out the similarity of the selection form to the fallacy of hasty generalization, in which the refutation of an opposing position that is weaker than the opponent's is claimed as a refutation of all opposing arguments. Because they have found significantly increased use of the selection form in modern political argumentation, they view its identification as an important new tool for the improvement of public discourse.[14]

Aikin and Casey expanded on this model in 2010, introducing a third form. Referring to the "representative form" as the classic straw man, and the "selection form" as the weak man, a third form is called the hollow man. A hollow man argument is one that is a complete fabrication, where both the viewpoint and the opponent expressing it do not in fact exist, or at the very least the arguer has never encountered them. Such arguments frequently takes the form of vague phrasing such as "some say," "someone out there thinks" or similar weasel words, or it might attribute a non-existent argument to a broad movement in general, rather than an individual or organization.[15][16]

A variation on the selection form, or "weak man" argument, that combines with an ad hominem is nut picking, a neologism coined by Kevin Drum.[17] A portmanteau of "nut" (i.e. insane person) and cherry picking, nut picking refers to intentionally seeking out extremely fringe, non-representative statements and/or individuals from members of an opposing group and parading these around as evidence of that entire group's incompetence or irrationality.[15]

In 2015, Ferrie and Combes coined the term "anomalous straw man" to refer to a failed attempt at a straw man argument. In a comment published in Physical Review Letters, they wrote:[18]

The actual content of Brodutch’s Comment is a failed attempt at a straw-man argument. Recall: a straw man, when performed properly, is a valid logical argument against a misrepresentation of an opponent’s position, which is clearly an invalid argument against the actual position of the opponent. Although Brodutch does indeed attack a misrepresentation of the argument in our Letter, the argument against the misrepresentation itself is fallacious. Since this technique of compounding fallacies has no name, we coin the term anomalous straw man for it—anomalous since it goes outside the range of usual logical fallacies.

The term "anomalous" appears to be a tongue-in-cheek reference to anomalous weak values[19]—the object of the discussion.
There you go.
 

Seriously

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There you go again. Instead of rectifying all the nonsensible statements and ideas you posted you post trolling garbage again. So sad to be a failure to your own conscience? Cannot admit you were and still are wrong with your statements made and completely missed the boat within this thread. Many other or most of the posters in this thread tried to guide you and told you how idiotic your claims and ideas were with proved with calculations and facts you are wrong which you tried hard to counter with your nonsensical info and thumb sucked ideas but also failed miserably, just like in your PD threads. Only two may have seemed to have agreed agreed, or that is what you thought, with your BS ideas but they were rather relating their own way of doing things that would be impractical for most of the readers of the thread if not all, yet you even misinterpreted and misrepresented their opinions and reasons in those posts to suus your own mind.
Non of my post you could debunk or prove as wrong as you live in your own dream world of engineering viability and reasoning.

I still doubt your so called qualifications, expertise and engineering skills and even my daughter can connect a diode if I tell her how! ;)

Tell us again about the special SWA science of double the amps (30amps) over a 2.5mm wire over a 10 meters line and that the wire resistance are not creating the volt drop due to load by rather the source? I need to laugh again!
 
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Swa

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There you go again. Instead of rectifying and acknowledging your fallacies you just troll on as if they are valid somehow incapable of realising what a fallacy is. Besides for that you still have an overinflated sense of how many people are on your side.
 
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