The energy solution for South Africa is DC power.

P924

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Are inverters getting more efficient by the day?

I realize that these will not be 100% effective as you will still have a small % of loss due to heat and other factors. What is the sine wave output like? Is it comparable to the standard sine wave encountered on AC? Or is it a stepped sine wave?

FWIW I tried to power a modern laptop from an UPS - its power brick did not like the square wave sine of the UPS, and therefore did not charge the laptop...

Inverters are currently just over 98% efficient with the latest commercially available tech. That is with pure sine with less than 3% THD, so it is pretty clean.

Also remember, if you want everything to operate on DC, you are going to have to have a switch mode power supply to regulate the voltage anyway, so that is already half of an AC inverter.
 

gombault

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I recommended a voltage of 120 it doesn’t matter if it’s AC or DC you will use the same wire gauge, the US use 120V for houses. I use my standard house light wiring and switches with 24V LED globes and get very little voltage drop. I don’t agree with the problem of corrosion. We all drive cars that’s DC powered and there is very little corrosion except for around the battery I came from an automotive electrical background and it’s very seldom that I found an electrical corrosion problem. I have to disagree on the arcing as well, every time you start your car your solenoid contacts engages your starter motor that draws very high amps. This switching can happen many times a day and you can strip solenoids that lasted for many years and the contacts are still fine. We use heavy load AC fuses on mine vehicles without any problems. I recommend this for house applications where do you want to use the semiconductors and capacitors in houses? I don’t know why you want a switch mode power supply your batteries are DC 120V your panels are 120V you regulate the input voltage and that is it you have 120V powering your house.
 

Gnome

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There is a very simple reason DC is a bad idea. No one is using it.

You will have:
1) Limited choices and with little to no competition between products
2) Super expensive
3) Lower quality due to 1

Inverters are currently just over 98% efficient with the latest commercially available tech
Anyone selling an inverter advertised as 98% efficient is blatantly lying. You could hope for 94% at max load, with an industrial version that runs on high voltage DC (eg. 48 volt for a 2000 watt inverter). And it isn't cheap.

Typically you are looking at 80% efficiency for the crap they sell in the stores and around 90%-94% for really expensive industrial versions.

Lying on inverter specs is not only common, it is the norm on anything except a few limited brands. (eg. Go Power, Thor, Cotek, Samlex)

.. you are going to have to have a switch mode power supply to regulate the voltage anyway, so that is already half of an AC inverter.
DC -> DC buck regulators are completely different from inverters. A modern inverter uses a boost stage using high frequency AC which is somewhat like a DC -> DC boost converter. The second part uses rectifiers and PWM to generate a sine wave. A DC-DC buck regulator does use PWM but the driver circuit is so different that I'm not sure it is fair to compare the two.

AC -> DC power supplies however consist of a DC -> DC buck regulator in its final stage to generate regulated output.

So converting DC -> DC is easier than converting AC -> DC. Except if you have unregulated DC output from AC (old style huge AC box plugs that are notorious for being crap and aren't really being used anymore)
 
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Billy

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Thomas Edison lost the race against AC power back then. Today we would have had a completely different world of power if we had things like solar panels and led lights in those days. All our electronic appliances today are DC they are actually converted into AC. Many of our household appliances will work straight of DC. Converting to a solar DC powered house is a far cheaper option, as everything is already DC like the solar panels, batteries, led lights, laptops, mobile phones and many others. Things like kettles, toasters and other heating kitchen appliances will work directly of DC. Most of your household appliances use brushed motors that will also run straight of DC. Here in sunny South Africa every house can generate its own free power from its roof. Converting the DC power into high voltage AC is not the answer the power losses is too high. The problem today is that no one is making DC household appliances, the other problem is getting everyone to standardize on a voltage. I think 110V should be the standard as it’s already a voltage used, it’s also cheaper to go for a lower voltage because of battery and solar panels costs. I made special 24v led globes for my house that runs of solar panels and batteries using my existing house lights, wiring and switches. I contacted Eskom some time back about my lighting system and their response was DC is not their power and was not interested in my proposal of using it in low cost housing. If we just convert every houses light’s to solar then we will take a big load of the grid and no one will ever be without lights again.
See the end of AC and the beginning of DC for households power http://theenergycollective.com/steve...ering-dc-power

What are you smoking?
Have you ever experienced DC mains supply?
Why not suggest we go back to gas lighting!

One of my happiest days as a youngster was when the Electricity Board delivered the replacement motors for our fans, fridges and most importantly a new controller for my electric train, when they converted our supply from DC to AC. Previously I had a very inefficient regulator to convert 240V DC to 12V DC, the new Triang controller was a joy.


And lets not forget the inventor of the Electric Light Bulb was not Edison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan
 
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P924

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There is a very simple reason DC is a bad idea. No one is using it.

You will have:
1) Limited choices and with little to no competition between products
2) Super expensive
3) Lower quality due to 1


Anyone selling an inverter advertised as 98% efficient is blatantly lying. You could hope for 94% at max load, with an industrial version that runs on high voltage DC (eg. 48 volt for a 2000 watt inverter). And it isn't cheap.

Typically you are looking at 80% efficiency for the crap they sell in the stores and around 90%-94% for really expensive industrial versions.

Lying on inverter specs is not only common, it is the norm on anything except a few limited brands. (eg. Go Power, Thor, Cotek, Samlex)


DC -> DC buck regulators are completely different from inverters. A modern inverter uses a boost stage using high frequency AC which is somewhat like a DC -> DC boost converter. Still tho, not really the same because after that stage you are dealing with rectifiers and PWM to generate a sinewave + noise isolation.

AC -> DC power supplies however consist of a DC -> DC regulator in its final stage.

So converting DC -> DC is easier than converting AC -> DC. Except if you have unregulated DC output from AC (old style huge AC box plugs that are notorious for being crap and aren't really being used anymore)

Lookup the specs on SiC based inverters. 98% is achieved on 6-10kW models IIRC. The first stage of an DC-AC inverter will be exactly what you will need in order to regulate the DC coming in from the panel, which will make up roughly half the DC-AC inverter by weight (excluding casing etc.) somewhat like a DC-DC boost converter? That is exactly what it is. Rectifiers and noise supression will be needed on any DC-DC converter that is going to be efficient.

Most AC-DC powersupplies nowadays are SMPS, with no "DC-DC regulator" in its "final stage". The SMPS will be regulated without the use of a linear regulator. Sure, DC-DC can be simpler, if efficiency is not important, and the voltages do not differ too much. However, if efficiency is a factor, which it should be, you will need a SMPS, and then by going DC, you will save on power factor correction and rectification.
 

Electron1

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Forget trying to transmit DC over distance.
Running your home lighting using 12 or 24VDC generated by Solar panels is an intriguing idea.
 

itareanlnotani

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DC isn't going to happen as the wiring costs are too high, as has been pointed out already in the thread.
Copper costs money. DC requires more cable than AC does.

May be possible to run lighting on DC, as you can buy 12v or 24v LED lighting fairly easily (well, at least I can!), and at 5w a bulb, its not going to need thick wire, as the current draw is low. I just ordered a bunch of bulbs for my accountant who's running a 12v system in fact. 12v systems also need more calculations for voltage drop / cable length than ac systems do. For every few meters of cable, you drop a volt, so you end up needing to run things at higher voltages to cater for the voltage drop.

For anything resembling a moderate current draw, you can also forget DC - eg washing machine, kettle, heaters, toaster, oven, geyser etc etc. Note why your car battery cable is so thick, and look at the price of copper wire, then see why 240v ac makes more sense.

DC makes sense for some things, but not that many as you think.

As for your solar idea -

I have solar panels on my roof. I don't run low voltage DC from the panels, as the cabling would be insane. Instead I run high voltage DC @ 600v / 8a to an inverter (which is 98.8% efficient at the curve for the datasheet, not 80% as some have suggested in thread), which then generates A/C.
DC from panels will work for a few panels - eg a smaller system, but nothing really larger.
 
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ambo

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Within a single house it could be practical to to have DC reticulation along with AC. As has been already mentioned it would be useless for any high power requirement like heating and motors.

It is something I have been considering since I picked up an old telco UPS. It runs at 48v which has been a standard in telecoms for years. This means that there are existing power supplies that support the voltage in computer and network equipment - although at a premium.

The problems are however numerous. Most DC equipment runs at various voltages so you need DC-DC converters for each voltage in use. These converters are about as efficient as AC-DC converters.

The other thing that has bothered me is what type of plug would you use. I can't find and standard wall plug that is designated for residential DC use. Most are industrial plugs that are not aesthetically pleasing.
 

CataclysmZA

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Thomas Edison was a lot of things, many of them beginning with the word "douche". AC is here to stay and it's simply the better solution for consumers and homeowners.

Dc is a great idea. But so is the Dvorak keyboard. (Picture people fiercely Googling this)
Not gonna happen soon - sad to say.

I long for a Dvorak mechanical keyboard. Qwerty is such a slow setup for typists on computers and it just makes typing slower in general.
 

obs

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AC is what is generated by a generator turning in 3 phases at the power station, this is stepped up to 11KV to transmit over long distances, and stepped down to 240V single phase AC again outside your house. It is a cheap and simple solution with acceptible low losses.

It is not feasible to transmit DC over long distances, unless we are talking about a couple of Milion Volts (Like Lightning) and then it is not stable and will arc and lose charge.
. . . . . . .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Advantages_of_HVDC_over_AC_transmission


from the article

"HVDC is more economical than AC transmission for transmitting large amounts of power over long distances. High power HVDC transmission scheme generally has lower capital costs and lower losses than AC transmission at long distances.HVDC conversion equipment at the terminal stations is costly but the transmission line costs over long distances are lower. HVDC requires less conductor per unit distance than an AC line, as there is no need to support three phases and there is no skin effect."
 

Nod

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Source: http://www.abb.co.za/cawp/seitp202/d3d102f39cad1a62c1257a830030e692.aspx
The Cahora Bassa hydro plant on the Zambezi river in Tete province produces 2,075 megawatts (MW), most of which is exported to neighboring South Africa via a 1,400 kilometer (km) high-voltage DC transmission line. The Cahora Bassa reservoir is also Africa’s fourth largest artificial lake.

The HVDC transmission system is jointly owned by Hidroeléctrica de Cahora Bassa in Mozambique and Eskom in South Africa. It is made up of two parallel lines that stretch from the Songo converter station in Mozambique to the Apollo station near Johannesburg. About two thirds of the line’s total length is within Mozambique.

Cahora+Bassa_infograph_508.jpg
 

gombault

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I am using my standard house wiring for my lights that’s as bright as incandescent globes. Yes DC is a problem when you transmit power over a long distance. If you look at vehicle electrics you will see they use thin gauge wire because of new components technology that consume very little power. You mention kettles you get 12V elements that plug in to you lighter that can boil nearly the same amount of water as a kettle. You have motors in cars like your fan and wiper motors that use a wire gauge about the same size as for 220V
The components for my house light system
4x 60W panels cost around PW R14.00 2x 105 Ah batteries each R1400.00 24v regulator R250.00 220V -24V DC power supply R750.00 the controller box with relay timer and odds and ends around R800.00 The globes I make myself they cost around R120.00 I have 16 in my house they are equivalent to a 100W globe. I also have 6 lamps outside on a day night switch. I removed my lights live and neutral wires from by DB board I replaced all my 220Vglobes with the 24V ones the wiring to my lights is going via my control box on to 24V my lights is not effected by power cuts my solar/battery system works all the time it’s not just a backup system it saves me money every day because I never pay for my lights. I have a cheap R180.00 inverter for TV/ DSTV that I switch on for during power cuts. The other advantage of my DC system is security, light is very important during power cuts. I use the power supply only when we didn’t have sun for a few days. I had this system in my house now for about 5 years and never replaced anything on it. DC does work for now it might only be for lights but I believe in the future it can supply free power to houses especially in rural poor communities. Compare the cost of my light system to just the Ac supply cable to a house 50 meters away. Also compare this to an inverter system that would require far bigger panels and batteries. The problem I have with Ac inverter systems is the power draw from the low voltage DC side you now have to charge enough expensive batteries with big solar panels so you can run all your appliances mostly at night when the family is at home, the problem at night is you have a total lost system you must wait for the sun to put back what you used. My question is, how long will it take to put that power back in those batteries before one could feed the extra power in to the grid and does that little bit justify the cost of the system?
 

ToxicBunny

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Ok, so now we must custom make all the little appliances we use at home, and jury rig solutions for the appliances we can't?

Sorry, but no.
 

Gnome

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The problem I have with Ac inverter systems is the power draw from the low voltage DC side you now have to charge enough expensive batteries with big solar panels so you can run all your appliances mostly at night when the family is at home, the problem at night is you have a total lost system you must wait for the sun to put back what you used. My question is, how long will it take to put that power back in those batteries before one could feed the extra power in to the grid and does that little bit justify the cost of the system?

I don't understand at all how this differs from your current system.

You have the lights wired up straight to your batteries?
 

Swa

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Wasn't the primary issue the transmission of DC power over long distances anyway?
It was the issue of conversion actually. AC is also a lot easier to generate with generators having less components and being more reliable.

Lookup the specs on SiC based inverters. 98% is achieved on 6-10kW models IIRC. The first stage of an DC-AC inverter will be exactly what you will need in order to regulate the DC coming in from the panel, which will make up roughly half the DC-AC inverter by weight (excluding casing etc.) somewhat like a DC-DC boost converter? That is exactly what it is. Rectifiers and noise supression will be needed on any DC-DC converter that is going to be efficient.
I agree with Gnome. Anyone who says their inverters are 98% efficient is lying. A modern transformer has a typical efficiency of 90%. The really good ones are 95% at most and cost a fortune.

Most AC-DC powersupplies nowadays are SMPS, with no "DC-DC regulator" in its "final stage". The SMPS will be regulated without the use of a linear regulator. Sure, DC-DC can be simpler, if efficiency is not important, and the voltages do not differ too much. However, if efficiency is a factor, which it should be, you will need a SMPS, and then by going DC, you will save on power factor correction and rectification.
No they are not. There's a huge amount of equipment in use that still use simple regulators as it's cheap. Only some computerised equipment use SMPS's and even then you'll see the final output stage usually consisting of a regulator.

DC isn't going to happen as the wiring costs are too high, as has been pointed out already in the thread.
Copper costs money. DC requires more cable than AC does.
Only if you're transmitting over a longer distance.

May be possible to run lighting on DC, as you can buy 12v or 24v LED lighting fairly easily (well, at least I can!), and at 5w a bulb, its not going to need thick wire, as the current draw is low. I just ordered a bunch of bulbs for my accountant who's running a 12v system in fact. 12v systems also need more calculations for voltage drop / cable length than ac systems do. For every few meters of cable, you drop a volt, so you end up needing to run things at higher voltages to cater for the voltage drop.
The voltage drop isn't nearly as high. The backbone for transmission of AC also sees a lot of power loss.

For anything resembling a moderate current draw, you can also forget DC - eg washing machine, kettle, heaters, toaster, oven, geyser etc etc. Note why your car battery cable is so thick, and look at the price of copper wire, then see why 240v ac makes more sense.
A car runs on 12V but draws a lot of power. Not the same situation. Most appliances use only a few amps at most and there are more of these than you think. The situation in the country is fast becoming one where we are going to have to cut down on high voltage appliances. Fluorescent lighting to replace incandescent was only the first step. Following that was solar geysers with heat pumps as a backup.

Ok, so now we must custom make all the little appliances we use at home, and jury rig solutions for the appliances we can't?

Sorry, but no.
No you don't. If most houses are equipped with DC to run the lighting system it's just a matter of time before the manufacturers start producing appliances with dual inputs for AC and for DC that bypasses the transformer and main regulator stages.
 
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ToxicBunny

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No you don't. If most houses are equipped with DC to run the lighting system it's just a matter of time before the manufacturers start producing appliances with dual inputs for AC for DC that bypasses the transformer and main regulator stages.

And until such time as the manufacturers ramp up and such? What must people do?
 

Gnome

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And until such time as the manufacturers ramp up and such? What must people do?

Modern switch mode supplies with universal voltage can actually run in DC mode :p

If you skip the rectifier it is essentially a DC switch mode power supply. Granted tho, it requires REALLY high voltages :p

But yeah does seem impractical. I still think your best bet is a very high quality inverter. I say again there is no way you can ever hope for 98% efficiency. But aiming for 85% - 90% isn't unrealistic (dependent on load) if you have a few batteries in series.
 

Swa

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And until such time as the manufacturers ramp up and such? What must people do?
Manufacturers will only ramp up when most houses are equipped with DC. We can expect it to happen within a year or two of such time and 5 years for most appliances like computers, TVs and stereos to be DC equipped. It would therefor be up to people to equip their houses with DC before then, which will be useful for lighting purposes and the coming blackouts will be a perfect opportunity for doing that. The main problem is going to be a standard voltage. Most appliances convert AC to voltages like 6V, 12V, and 24V. 24V (two car batteries) is therefor a good choice to push into the market. The other problem is a new socket so that people don't accidentally connect a DC appliance to an AC socket. Something like the American flat two prong would be ideal but perhaps we can also use a standard cigarette lighter plug.
 
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