The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life

[chrisc]

UFOs have propagated intelligent life throughout the universe. Just watch History Channel for a convincing argument that ancient aliens visited us during their milk-run of the galaxy. Any fine tuning will have been done by the descendants of these visitors from outer space, just as we are fine-tuning the earth to our requirements at this moment

 

[DrJohnZoidberg]

UFOs have propagated intelligent life throughout the universe. Just watch History Channel for a convincing argument that ancient aliens visited us during their milk-run of the galaxy. Any fine tuning will have been done by the descendants of these visitors from outer space, just as we are fine-tuning the earth to our requirements at this moment

You're absolutely right. The History Channel is a best source of information regarding aliens

 

[Unhappy438]

 

[AlphaJohn]

Dude, if I was an Alien and wanted to hide my ship I would film it and send the movie to the History channel myself. That way everyone would simply ignore it when they see it

 

[Techne]

That's just the thing. Finely-tuned from our perspective.

At present humans only have the perspectives of other humans. And based on this evidence gathered from scientists (who are also mere humans ;p) we can reasonably conclude that the universe is fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life and biological evolution.

Maybe in another universe the conditions would only allow for simple life like bacteria to develop. That universe would be finely-tuned for bacteria. Maybe the conditions in another universe would not allow any life to develop. That universe would also be finely-tuned, not for life but for something else.

Sure. The point, however, is that only a minute subset of possible universes would even allow for it.

Also, who knows if our universe is really finely-tuned. Maybe it could be much more finely-tuned so that intelligent life could evolve faster and be more abundant. Maybe a universe could give rise to more than intelligent life as we know it. So, I say, since we don't know these things, we should not just make assumptions that the universe's purpose is to give rise to life as we know it.

Again, sure, why not? However, more finely-tuned universes do not imply this one is not finely tuned. Also, fine-tuning does not imply that it is the universe's purpose to give rise to life.

 

[AlphaJohn]

At present humans only have the perspectives of other humans. And based on this evidence gathered from scientists (who are also mere humans ;p) we can reasonably conclude that life and biological evolution is fine-tuned to allow for its existence in this universe.

FIFY

We can only imagine a universe with atoms, gravity and so on, cause that is all we know and even here the formulas have some play, can be little or a lot it does not matter there is still room for play. There might be others that have for example no gravity yet yeld intelligent life of some odd sort that we can not even comprehend how it will function, but its life that would be fine tuned to its surroundings and not the surrounding to it.

Edit: Also what we do not know is how "laws" outside of the known universe could be affecting the laws inside our own, or others if they do indeed exist.

 

[Techne]

We can only imagine a universe with atoms, gravity and so on, cause that is all we know and even here the formulas have some play, can be little or a lot it does not matter there is still room for play. There might be others that have for example no gravity yet yeld intelligent life of some odd sort that we can not even comprehend how it will function, but its life that would be fine tuned to its surroundings and not the surrounding to it.

Edit: Also what we do not know is how "laws" outside of the known universe could be affecting the laws inside our own, or others if they do indeed exist.

Again, given what we know is needed for life as we know it, we can come to the conclusion that the universe is finely-tuned. Sure, there may some ultra exotic scenarios where all kinds of weird life forms may emerge and our imaginations (or intellects) may be our limit. None of this takes away from the observation that the universe as we observe it appears finely-tuned for life to exist.

Re laws. A discussion about their ontological status would be interesting and speculation about all kinds of extra-universal laws would be fascinating Also, whether future discoveries of other laws would change this is an interesting direction, and of course future arguments for fine-tuning would have to take this into consideration. But, given what we do know, we can conclude that the universe is finely-tuned for the existence of life.

 

[zippy]

Again, given what we know is needed for life as we know it, we can come to the conclusion that the universe is finely-tuned. Sure, there may some ultra exotic scenarios where all kinds of weird life forms may emerge and our imaginations (or intellects) may be our limit. None of this takes away from the observation that the universe as we observe it appears finely-tuned for life to exist.

Re laws. A discussion about their ontological status would be interesting and speculation about all kinds of extra-universal laws would be fascinating Also, whether future discoveries of other laws would change this is an interesting direction, and of course future arguments for fine-tuning would have to take this into consideration. But, given what we do know, we can conclude that the universe is finely-tuned for the existence of life.

How can you come to the conclusion that the universe is finely tuned for life when we have no clue about what makes of over 70% of all matter and energy ?

It may well be that life is a fluke. It only exists here and will be extinguished relatively soon when the sun expands and cooks our ass

After which there is no life. Nothing. Fine-tuned

 

[Techne]

How can you come to the conclusion that the universe is finely tuned for life when we have no clue about what makes of over 70% of all matter and energy ?

From the article in the OP:

What is the evidence that FT is true? We would like to have meticulously examined every possible universe and determined whether any form of life evolves. Sadly, this is currently beyond our abilities. Instead, we rely on simplified models and more general arguments to step out into possible-physics-space. If the set of life-permitting universes is small amongst the universes that we have been able to explore, then we can reasonably infer that it is unlikely that the trend will be miraculously reversed just beyond the horizon of our knowledge.

This is what is being observed.

It may well be that life is a fluke. It only exists here and will be extinguished relatively soon when the sun expands and cooks our ass

After which there is no life. Nothing. Fine-tuned

Life may be a "fluke" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and it may last for a relatively short period of time. This does not take away from the observation that "set of life-permitting universes is small amongst the universes that we have been able to explore" (through simulation of course), which of course supports the idea of fine-tuning.

 

[zippy]

From the article in the OP:

This is what is being observed.



Life may be a "fluke" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and it may last for a relatively short period of time. This does not take away from the observation that "set of life-permitting universes is small amongst the universes that we have been able to explore" (through simulation of course), which of course supports the idea of fine-tuning.

simulations based on the little we know about the universe doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.

What we do know about the universe is thats its an incredibly violent place and mostly deadly to life, as we know it. I would say that the universe is fine tuned to regularly create and destroy. Its luck that an environment can stay out harms way long enough to allow life to take hold for any meanigul length of time.

 

[Techne]

simulations based on the little we know about the universe doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.

It's based on what empirical science has discovered so far.

What we do know about the universe is thats its an incredibly violent place and mostly deadly to life, as we know it.

Sure. The point of course being that only a minute small fraction of possible universes (again from simulations and current knowledge) even allow life as we know it in the first place.

I would say that the universe is fine tuned to regularly create and destroy.

Any universe where there is change you will find this. This is hardly special in our case.

Its luck that an environment can stay out harms way long enough to allow life to take hold for any meanigul length of time.

Whether luck had anything to do with it or not does not change the apparent fact that the "set of life-permitting universes is small amongst the universes that we have been able to explore".

 

[rwenzori]

Sure. The point of course being that only a minute small fraction of possible universes (again from simulations and current knowledge) even allow life as we know it in the first place.

Outside of that limitation, our beloved Creator COULD have made a different universe by including some nice extra stuff, like the AllBran quark, the Ghostpop particle, and the irresistible Chocolate Matter. That would have made a universe much more lekker for life.

 

[w1z4rd]

Outside of that limitation, our beloved Creator COULD have made a different universe by including some nice extra stuff, like the AllBran quark, the Ghostpop particle, and the irresistible Chocolate Matter. That would have made a universe much more lekker for life.

Or the "Creator" could have thought ahead and built a universe where 99.9999% of it does not try kill life. If the creator did create this universe for life, he must have been on a crack cocaine comedown at the time.

 

[AlphaJohn]

Or the "Creator" could have thought ahead and built a universe where 99.9999% of it does not try kill life. If the creator did create this universe for life, he must have been on a crack cocaine comedown at the time.

Stuff that, I do not mind the Universe trying to kill us, how about stopping my own body from trying to kill us (Cancer)

Its not a tall Order either, some creatures on this planet can do it, look at the naked mole rat for example

 

[rwenzori]

Or the "Creator" could have thought ahead and built a universe where 99.9999% of it does not try kill life. If the creator did create this universe for life, he must have been on a crack cocaine comedown at the time.

Well, exactly. All this "finely tuned" stuff is virtually meaningless. If the universe had been different and no life had evolved, so wot.

 

[w1z4rd]

Well, exactly. All this "finely tuned" stuff is virtually meaningless. If the universe had been different and no life had evolved, so wot.

However its not impossible that our universe has a creator. I mean someone could be playing with a more powerful particle accelerator in another universe

I kinda like multiverse concepts

 

[AlphaJohn]

I kinda like multiverse concepts

Was just about to ask you which one.... then I noticed the "s"

 

[Techne]

Stuff that, I do not mind the Universe trying to kill us, how about stopping my own body from trying to kill us (Cancer)

Its not a tall Order either, some creatures on this planet can do it, look at the naked mole rat for example

Lol, cancer is mainly due to evolution. And there are some pretty interesting arguments that cancer is actually not part of your own body anymore but rather a different kind of organism (due to evolution and speciation). Kind of like a malignant bacterial infection only that the cells are evolutionary derived from your own somatic cells. So... blame cancer on evolution .

 

[w1z4rd]

Lol, cancer is mainly due to evolution. And there are some pretty interesting arguments that cancer is actually not part of your own body anymore but rather a different kind of organism (due to evolution and speciation). Kind of like a malignant bacterial infection only that the cells are evolutionary derived from your own somatic cells. So... blame cancer on evolution .

You are right. I think mutations have generally 3 types of effect . Positive, benign, negative. Very very seldom will there be a positive mutation. Most often the mutation is benign and fairly often it is negative. Cancer.

Our body is filled with cells that evolved as mentioned in endosymbiotic theory.

Very interesting topic:

The endosymbiotic theory argues that mitochondria, plastids (e.g. chloroplasts), and possibly other organelles of eukaryotic cells, originate through symbiosis between multiple microorganisms. According to this theory, certain organelles originated as free-living bacteria that were taken inside another cell as endosymbionts. Mitochondria developed from proteobacteria (in particular, Rickettsiales, the SAR11 clade,[1][2] or close relatives) and chloroplasts from cyanobacteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

 

[Techne]

You are right. I think mutations have generally 3 types of effect . Positive, benign, negative. Very very seldom will there be a positive mutation. Most often the mutation is benign and fairly often it is negative. Cancer.

Aneuploidy is most like a bigger contribution.

Our body is filled with cells that evolved as mentioned in endosymbiotic theory.

Osteoblast fusion to form osteoclasts can be argued to be a form of endosymbiosis and continues in your body now.