The Gender Debate

Emjay

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https://medium.com/@Antonia_Lee/transgender-sport-advantage-upon-advantage-d5195a3156ac

Another article about women's sports.

Some interesting bits:

On the question of why MSM covers this in the way it does:

Two qualified journalists I know have put forward the matter-of-fact business view that it’s all about the clicks. It’s a game of being contrary in order to drive traffic to the paper’s website and its adverts. It’s just about the revenue. One of them also suggested that it’s possible that a copy deadline had been and gone, and in a moment of laziness, something — anything — was thrown together based upon a quick flick-through of someone else’s newspaper in a desperate search for topicality.
Indeed, right now in the Canada Winter Games, you can compete in the ‘gender’ with which you identify, with no questions asked: incredible but true.
I am predicting now that transgender athletes will smash a few women's world records.

At the other extreme, in a modern Olympic Games, nations typically measure themselves on medals won and their final place on the medals table. When a performance advantage exists, it is always exploited. The 2020 Games — the first under the IOC’s revised transgender rules — will be interesting.
 

Zoomzoom

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Why aren't there any transgendered men (or whatever the correct term is for a person who is biologically a woman but identifies as male) competing in men's sports?

Why are there only transgender women (biologically male) competing in women's sports?

Is it because there is no way a woman can win in men's events, and because there is a distinct advantage the other way around? Perhaps? Maybe?
 

Emjay

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Why aren't there any transgendered men (or whatever the correct term is for a person who is biologically a woman but identifies as male) competing in men's sports?

Why are there only transgender women (biologically male) competing in women's sports?

Is it because there is no way a woman can win in men's events, and because there is a distinct advantage the other way around? Perhaps? Maybe?
The advantages men have over women are irrefutable. It is not even a grey area. It however is not discussed or considered. Women's sports is an acceptable causality due to this, and some have even come out and said so.
 

MrsWestcot

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Why aren't there any transgendered men (or whatever the correct term is for a person who is biologically a woman but identifies as male) competing in men's sports?

Why are there only transgender women (biologically male) competing in women's sports?

Is it because there is no way a woman can win in men's events, and because there is a distinct advantage the other way around? Perhaps? Maybe?
Precisely!
 

MrsWestcot

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The advantages men have over women are irrefutable. It is not even a grey area. It however is not discussed or considered. Women's sports is an acceptable causality due to this, and some have even come out and said so.
And have been called transphobic for stating the obvious.
 

Cray

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When a man wins woman of the year, you know there is trouble on the horizon...
Assume your are talking about Caitlyn Jenner? Named woman of the year by "Glamour" magazine....? With a worldwide circulation of just under 2.5 million, am not sure they are as influential as all that...
 

STS

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Why aren't there any transgendered men (or whatever the correct term is for a person who is biologically a woman but identifies as male) competing in men's sports?

Why are there only transgender women (biologically male) competing in women's sports?

Is it because there is no way a woman can win in men's events, and because there is a distinct advantage the other way around? Perhaps? Maybe?
I believe it is due to puberty and the growth of the body, as not many transgender people take hormones(testosterone) during their teenager years nor would people really advise them to. Once you have that bone density/strength, you tend to carry it with you for the rest of your life
 

MrsWestcot

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Assume your are talking about Caitlyn Jenner? Named woman of the year by "Glamour" magazine....? With a worldwide circulation of just under 2.5 million, am not sure they are as influential as all that...
Guess not, but it is still a man winning a woman's award.... If you know what I am saying.
 

thestaggy

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Why aren't there any transgendered men (or whatever the correct term is for a person who is biologically a woman but identifies as male) competing in men's sports?

Why are there only transgender women (biologically male) competing in women's sports?

Is it because there is no way a woman can win in men's events, and because there is a distinct advantage the other way around? Perhaps? Maybe?
Male puberty. Its is a distinct advantage when it comes to sports and athletics. It is generally accepted that a boy between the ages of 14 - 16 is already stronger than your average fully-developed woman.

In 2017 The US national women's soccer team lost 5-2 to a boys U-15 academy team. The US women play in a professional football league and are one of the best teams in women's football (2015 World Champions and 2012 Olympic gold medalists). After this match they defeated the Russian women's team 4-0. This puts it in to perspective. Pro-female athletes can beat other female athletes but they are no match - physically/athletically - for pubescent boys.

An interesting case is Andreas Krieger. A former East German shot-putter. Born Heidi Krieger, he was unknowingly doped with anabolic steroids (along with a host of other ''vitamins'') from the age of 18 by athletic officials. His steroid intake was more than double that of former 100 m world record holder Ben Johnson. At the age of 20, he won (women's) gold at the 1986 European Championships and at this stage he had visibly male features due to all the steroids. However, he never made an Olympic team (as a woman) and never approached what the men were doing, even when put through an extreme training regime that would leave him with lifelong back, knee and hip pain. His body simply was not equipped to deal with the strains it was placed under and there was a limit to how far he could push it, which wasn't anywhere near the men. He ultimately underwent reassignment surgery, such were the changes his body experienced as a result of the steroids and other goodies he was unknowingly plied with as a teenager/young woman.
 
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cupcake

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Gender and personality traits exist on a spectrum, it's very difficult to quantify and shove this stuff into a box. When I see someone with extreme views it's a red flag that their is a underlying agenda.
 

Zoomzoom

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Male puberty. Its is a distinct advantage when it comes to sports and athletics. It is generally accepted that a boy between the ages of 14 - 16 is already stronger than your average fully-developed woman.

In 2017 The US national women's soccer team lost 5-2 to a boys U-15 academy team. The US women play in a professional football league and are one of the best teams in women's football (2015 World Champions and 2012 Olympic gold medalists). After this match they defeated the Russian women's team 4-0. This puts it in to perspective. Pro-female athletes can beat other female athletes but they are no match - physically/athletically - for pubescent boys.

An interesting case is Andreas Krieger. A former East German shot-putter. Born Heidi Krieger, he was unknowingly doped with anabolic steroids (along with a host of other ''vitamins'') from the age of 18 by athletic officials. His steroid intake was more than double that of former 100 m world record holder Ben Johnson. At the age of 20, he won (women's) gold at the 1986 European Championships and at this stage he had visibly male features due to all the steroids. However, he never made an Olympic team (as a woman) and never approached what the men were doing, even when put through an extreme training regime that would leave him with lifelong back, knee and hip pain. His body simply was not equipped to deal with the strains it was placed under and there was a limit to how far he could push it, which wasn't anywhere near the men. He ultimately underwent reassignment surgery, such were the changes his body experienced as a result of the steroids and other goodies he was unknowingly plied with as a teenager/young woman.
So what you are saying then is that the only way to cheat the system is to be born male, go through puberty naturally, and then 'decide' you are really female and compete as a 'woman'?

Don't tell me that it has absolutely NEVER EVER occurred to any of these athletes that they might just have an advantage.
 

Zoomzoom

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Gender and personality traits exist on a spectrum, it's very difficult to quantify and shove this stuff into a box. When I see someone with extreme views it's a red flag that their is a underlying agenda.
Not disagreeing with that, but then don't try to compete professionally as a woman if you were born a man. Sorry but what you think and feel you are isn't what you are biologically. And there is a difference which is why men and women don't compete against each other in most sports (there are a few exceptions, but not many).


There are several MTF (male to female) transgender athletes who have competed as women after transitioning. There are several former female athletes who transitioned after ending their career. There are no (to my knowledge) FTM athletes who competed as men after transitioning. This is such a notable difference that it bears examination.
 

STS

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So what you are saying then is that the only way to cheat the system is to be born male, go through puberty naturally, and then 'decide' you are really female and compete as a 'woman'?

Don't tell me that it has absolutely NEVER EVER occurred to any of these athletes that they might just have an advantage.
I am very sure that that many of them are aware that they have an advantage, but that is almost like saying you become gay for the sake of having an easier dating pool. It usually has a lot more to do with self-identity than it does having an easier sports experience.

Edit: It is not fair of them to capitalise on their advantages however, although for many men to transition to women they take hormones to allow the changes to happen which already damper their advantages. Still, people who transition have to be aware of their previous advantages
 
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STS

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Not disagreeing with that, but then don't try to compete professionally as a woman if you were born a man. Sorry but what you think and feel you are isn't what you are biologically. And there is a difference which is why men and women don't compete against each other in most sports (there are a few exceptions, but not many).


There are several MTF (male to female) transgender athletes who have competed as women after transitioning. There are several former female athletes who transitioned after ending their career. There are no (to my knowledge) FTM athletes who competed as men after transitioning. This is such a notable difference that it bears examination.
On that note too however, the fastest woman in the world was about 1-2 seconds behind Usian Bolt and had to go through a life of controversy about doping/cheating. An indian female athlete went through the exact same thing that Caster is currently going through due to testosterone levels.

You have to wonder why there is a woman's category at all if someone women can compete on the men's level, more so that some women runners have to take inhibitors to SLOW themselves down because they're out performing other female athletes. Would we agree with Usian Bolt taking estrogen because he is too fast for other male athletes?

Just do away with sex categories already and let the best of the best compete, go back to A/B/C/D teams rather than dividing and limiting people based on things they cannot change
 
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On that note too however, the fastest woman in the world was about 1-2 seconds behind Usian Bolt and had to go through a life of controversy about doping/cheating. An indian female athlete went through the exact same thing that Caster is currently going through due to testosterone levels.

You have to wonder why there is a woman's category at all if someone women can compete on the men's level, more so that some women runners have to take inhibitors to SLOW themselves down because they're out performing other female athletes. Would we agree with Usian Bolt taking estrogen because he is too fast for other male athletes?

Just do away with sex categories already and let the best of the best compete, go back to A/B/C/D teams rather than dividing and limiting people based on things they cannot change
You do know how long 1 - 2 seconds is/are in 100m right? That's probably about 20 meter difference. I honestly think you don't think before you type. So by comparison, the world's fastest woman, is about 20 meters behind the fastest man on earth? That's 1/5 slower, or 20% slower.

And you want to use that as a bases for having a single sporting event with no gender categories?

Geesus :D
 

Zoomzoom

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On that note too however, the fastest woman in the world was about 1-2 seconds behind Usian Bolt and had to go through a life of controversy about doping/cheating. An indian female athlete went through the exact same thing that Caster is currently going through due to testosterone levels.

You have to wonder why there is a woman's category at all if someone women can compete on the men's level, more so that some women runners have to take inhibitors to SLOW themselves down because they're out performing other female athletes. Would we agree with Usian Bolt taking estrogen because he is too fast for other male athletes?

Just do away with sex categories already and let the best of the best compete, go back to A/B/C/D teams rather than dividing and limiting people based on things they cannot change
2 seconds is more than the difference between first and last place in a race. They are measuring the differences in microseconds. So not really comparably fast.
 

Cray

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You do know how long 1 - 2 seconds is/are in 100m right? That's probably about 20 meter difference. I honestly think you don't think before you type. So by comparison, the world's fastest woman, is about 20 meters behind the fastest man on earth? That's 1/5 slower, or 20% slower.
It's actually less than a second....

Bolt - 9.58

Florence Griffith-Joyner - 10.49

If you take out those two then it seems to average out about a second slower for women over 100m.

Not disputing your point, I agree they shouldn't compete together either.
 
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