The Gender Debate

Pitbull

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2 seconds is more than the difference between first and last place in a race. They are measuring the differences in microseconds. So not really comparably fast.
Saw a video the other day of a laaitie doing the 100m in 13.?? seconds. Kid was 7 years old I think. By STS's logic, that's only 4 seconds slower than the worlds fastest man, so why not remove age as a restriction too? :D
 

Pitbull

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It's actually less than a second....

Bolt - 9.58

Florence Griffith-Joyner - 10.49

If you take out those two then it seems to average out about a second slower for women over 100m.

Not disputing your point, I agree they shouldn't compete together either.
I didn't check who did what, I went on what STS typed. So my post still stands...
 

Zoomzoom

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https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/we-thought-female-athletes-were-catching-up-to-men-but-theyre-not/260927/

The Israeli physicist Ira Hammerman spoke at the 2010 Wingate Congress of Exercise & Sports Sciences, and he found that this little-known ratio held across all sports.

Running. Swimming. Rowing. Kayaking. Short distance, long distance. Accomplished in teams or attempted alone.These are such diverse events, requiring different parts of the body and diverse types of talent. And yet they all share something: Their women's speed world records are all about 90 percent of their men's speed world records, in both short, middle and long distances.
 

STS

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It's actually less than a second....

Bolt - 9.58

Florence Griffith-Joyner - 10.49

If you take out those two then it seems to average out about a second slower for women over 100m.

Not disputing your point, I agree they shouldn't compete together either.
What people forget is that these are comparing only the fastest runners, they don't mention that those female runners are faster than many male who didn't make it.

If women can reach higher speeds with the use of testosterone(which is natural in many people), why can't they capitalise on it? Too fast for female racing, too slow for male racing, it's crazy.

I respect's people's decision to prefer different categories, I feel that many women can compete given the chance tho
 

Emjay

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On that note too however, the fastest woman in the world was about 1-2 seconds behind Usian Bolt and had to go through a life of controversy about doping/cheating. An indian female athlete went through the exact same thing that Caster is currently going through due to testosterone levels.

You have to wonder why there is a woman's category at all if someone women can compete on the men's level, more so that some women runners have to take inhibitors to SLOW themselves down because they're out performing other female athletes. Would we agree with Usian Bolt taking estrogen because he is too fast for other male athletes?

Just do away with sex categories already and let the best of the best compete, go back to A/B/C/D teams rather than dividing and limiting people based on things they cannot change
Caster is male. She has male reproductive organs, although hidden and X chromosomes. She just presents as female. It was covered in the Caster thread that is currently active.

And creating A, B, C teams will be the end of female sports. Period. Great signals to our daughters that their achievements are not culturally relevant. Have you ever competed in anything? There is no point in competing in the B or C teams. It's almost the same as participation awards.
 

Cray

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If women can reach higher speeds with the use of testosterone(which is natural in many people), why can't they capitalise on it? Too fast for female racing, too slow for male racing, it's crazy.
If you are going to allow women to take testosterone for performance you then have to allow men to do it, sure the ladies will improve their performances but so will the men.
 

Cray

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Caster is male. She has male reproductive organs, although hidden and X chromosomes. She just presents as female. It was covered in the Caster thread that is currently active.
.
Has that ever been confirmed other than that one story from the Aussie press that was picked up by other outlets? I know it's not in Caster's interests to disclose the results if they do say this but it seems a bit churlish to repeat as factual something that was leaked and never confirmed.
 

Pitbull

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What people forget is that these are comparing only the fastest runners, they don't mention that those female runners are faster than many male who didn't make it.
You do realize that the direct opposite is also true?
 

STS

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You do realize that the direct opposite is also true?
But you compare people on their individual basis and performance, since we want equality. Maybe some people are happier being the fastest woman, maybe others are happier being the fastest person
 

Emjay

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STS

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Caster is male. She has male reproductive organs, although hidden and X chromosomes. She just presents as female. It was covered in the Caster thread that is currently active.

And creating A, B, C teams will be the end of female sports. Period. Great signals to our daughters that their achievements are not culturally relevant. Have you ever competed in anything? There is no point in competing in the B or C teams. It's almost the same as participation awards.
Can you give me a link to this please? If it is true then there will be evidence(not a thread)
 

Emjay

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Can you give me a link to this please? If it is true then there will be evidence(not a thread)
I see you were a participant in that thread, yet you missed this? There was a long relevant discussion in that thread too which gives context to these links. You seem to have very impactful opinions, but don't seem to be interested in understanding the differences in female and male physiology.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6170229/Caster-Semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show.html

https://www.iol.co.za/sport/athletics/iaaf-deny-uk-report-of-wanting-to-classify-caster-semenya-as-a-biological-male-19288474

At very best, Caster is intersex with more male advantages (male genitalia and corresponding hormonal levels). Instead of obliterating female sports, a separate category should be added.
 

thestaggy

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So what you are saying then is that the only way to cheat the system is to be born male, go through puberty naturally, and then 'decide' you are really female and compete as a 'woman'?

Don't tell me that it has absolutely NEVER EVER occurred to any of these athletes that they might just have an advantage.
Well that's the question and why this is such a controversial subject.

I feel for the biological female athletes that have to stand on the sidelines and watch social activists determine what is or isn't fair competition. Thankfully combat organisations such as the UFC have guaranteed that they will not expose their female fighters to MTF fighters.
 

Pitbull

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But you compare people on their individual basis and performance, since we want equality. Maybe some people are happier being the fastest woman, maybe others are happier being the fastest person
You're delusional now. Never will the fastest female beat the fastest Male at any level of competition. Be it under 10, varsity or at league. So what you're actually saying is females should make peace with never being the best in a physical sport and be happy about it? I'm sure given the choice they would compete differently. Caster case being a prime example...
 

thestaggy

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What people forget is that these are comparing only the fastest runners, they don't mention that those female runners are faster than many male who didn't make it.
When Bolt set that record in 2009, there were 47 other male athletes at that meeting that ran at Joyner's record time or under in the qualifying heats. 9 of those athletes didn't even qualify for the quarter-finals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_World_Championships_in_Athletics_–_Men's_100_metres#Heats

If Joyner ran her time at the 2016 Olympic Games, she would have just scrapped through the men's preliminary heats, finishing as the 2nd fastest of 8 runners. The preliminary heats feature the slowest, lowest ranked male sprinters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_100_metres#Preliminaries

After that she would not have made it out of Round 1, her 10.49 placing her 60th out of 69 runners. Those 10ths of seconds at an elite-level is miles off the pace.

And now keep in mind that I am comparing Joyner's fastest ever run against the qualifying times of the men. You run slower in the qualifying heats. Even Bolt ran 10s+ in the qualifying heats because you conserve yourself.
 
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STS

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You're delusional now. Never will the fastest female beat the fastest Male at any level of competition. Be it under 10, varsity or at league. So what you're actually saying is females should make peace with never being the best in a physical sport and be happy about it? I'm sure given the choice they would compete differently. Caster case being a prime example...
Does this not apply to every competition and profession tho? The best person in every field has 99% of being a male. The best record holders are also always male. Men can enter fields dominated by women and also excel(often referred to as white male privilege).

I am just saying equal rights doesn't mean equally capable, but it's only fair to give everyone an equal chance
 

Pitbull

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Does this not apply to every competition and profession tho? The best person in every field has 99% of being a male. The best record holders are also always male. Men can enter fields dominated by women and also excel(often referred to as white male privilege).

I am just saying equal rights doesn't mean equally capable, but it's only fair to give everyone an equal chance
That's why I said physical sports.

I'm 100% confident women can compete on a level playing field if it comes to non physical sports like shooting, chess and the likes. It's completely unfair to compare women or even want women in the same class as males in any physical sport.
 

Emjay

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Let's put it this way. We can obliterate female and male sports, and then quotas will eventually seep into all sports selections. Wonder how that will turn out, hey guys? Seems like a great way to ruin it for everyone, and not just females.
 

Emjay

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http://thefederalist.com/2019/02/26/doctors-insist-canadian-14-year-old-needs-no-parent-consent-trans-hormone-injections/

They referred Maxine and her mother, Sarah, to a “Dr.” Wallace Wong — a psychologist and LGBT activist who predictably decided that Maxine should be referred to a children’s hospital for testosterone injections when she was only 13. Not to be outdone, the children’s hospital asked Maxine’s parents for permission to begin injecting Maxine with testosterone on her very first visit. Clark said no and refused to sign.

From the middle of August until October, the hospital worked Clark over, trying to get his consent. When he finally refused, the hospital dropped a bombshell threat: simply put, they declared that they didn’t need Clark’s or Sarah’s permission for that matter. In a letter mailed December 1, 2018, Dr. Brenden Hursh informed Clark that they would begin treatment on Maxine in two weeks, without Clark’s consent.
 
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