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The Jordan Peterson discussion thread

ArtyLoop

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somehow you managed to construct another strawman
Strawman se moer..
People are taught in this life when they are young that money is the root of all evil especially in religious contexts. They do the same regarding sex (but that's another discussion for another day). I have, many times been tempted to create my own religion to roll in the dough but I do have a conscience for those dimwits I might con out of their money and leaving them worse off than they were previously
 

DMNknight

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I don't mind listening to what he has to say on its own merits, but to assume that helping people is his only purpose while he rakes in $80 000 per month off Patreon is a little naive...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/patreon-rise-jordan-peterson-online-membership
Furthermore, $80 000 says a lot about what he says needing to be heard. That's $80 000 worth of people that have heard what he is saying and it speaks to them at some level. A lot of his followers are after all feeling as he is speaking for them.

He may not be perfect, or completely within reason ALL the time. It's as if you're expecting him to be jesus christ and flawless in reason, knowlege and ability all the time?

Some of what he says is questionable, but it has not been with malice aforethought.
 

Cray

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Exactly my point. Using a straw-man fallacy to attack him because he is earning money off of works created before he became well known or famous (ergo the knowledge in his head, years of study etc.).
Which part of my post was a straw man, please quote the exact part? I was not discounting his arguments - I was objecting to you making out that his motivation is to help people when it's entirely possible that his motivation could be to earn money from people..

"I found out how to monetize social justice warriors" - Jordan Peterson
He may be leveraging his new found fame to create an income, I don't see why the belittles any of his idea's or educated opinions on what he see's as going sideways.
It's always going to be from his perspective, because he has no other perspective to view from.
It doesn't so lets discuss his ideas than rather trying to sell us on his motivations...
 

mmmig

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Where did I say that? People are welcome to make money, just don't expect me to accept their ideas without question because of some sort of appeal to Peterson's desire to help people when it's entirely possible his new found high profile could be just about making money.. Not saying it is but you have to accept that possibility...



All if it?
What difference if is some or all of the money? People give support him on Patreon for the simple fact they like his content and what he does with the money is his own business
 

DMNknight

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I didn't say it was a problem, I objected the characterization that helping people is his motivation - do you think Alex Jones' motivation is to help people?
He started off helping people. His years of study, learning how to reason, teaching and private practise. All of this existed before he was catapulted into the public eye.
His current income is because he became famous for arguing with the goverment about controlling free speech, ergo he got famous.

There is no champion, no spokesperson, that exists without people who feel as is they are being spoken/championed for.
 
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Cray

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Furthermore, $80 000 says a lot about what he says needing to be heard. That's $80 000 worth of people that have heard what he is saying and it speaks to them at some level. A lot of his followers are after all feeling as he is speaking for them.
Alex Jones probably makes a lot more than that, does his bats**t insanity also need to be heard?
 

mmmig

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Strawman se moer..
People are taught in this life when they are young that money is the root of all evil especially in religious contexts. They do the same regarding sex (but that's another discussion for another day). I have, many times been tempted to create my own religion to roll in the dough but I do have a conscience for those dimwits I might con out of their money and leaving them worse off than they were previously
Again with the strawman. JBP is religious man personally but he's not creating some kind of religious cult
 

Cray

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What difference if is some or all of the money?
All the difference in the world, if someone chooses to donate all their income to a worthy cause then you can make a reasoned guess that their motivation is not just about making money. Ff someone donates 1% of their income to said cause then you could argue that there are other factors involved.
 

konfab

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DMNknight

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Alex Jones probably makes a lot more than that, does his bats**t insanity also need to be heard?
You have a point. The man has probably surpassed the point of education where he needs to believe conspiracy theories. Yet he has learned how to sell it to his audience.

Has JP done the same thing in your eyes?
 

mmmig

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All the difference in the world, if someone chooses to donate all their income to a worthy cause then you can make a reasoned guess that their motivation is not just about making money. Ff someone donates 1% of their income to said cause then you could argue that there are other factors involved.
People can spend their money however they feel like. Patreon is not a site for "causes" it's a website for viewers to support content creators. Sam Harris for example also gets money through Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/samharris
 

Cray

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What do you mean by helping?

Patreon is entirely voluntarily, which means that by definiton he is proving $80 000 per month in value to other people.
I think you are confusing value and price... surely the value that people derive from him is unaffected by the amount of money they choose to donate? Of do you think that something cannot be overpriced?
 

Cray

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People can spend their money however they feel like. Patreon is not a site for "causes" it's a website for viewers to support content creators. Sam Harris for example also gets money through Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/samharris
Fine, but don't mention his online university then -he makes money for creating content, 100% no issue, so does Alex Jones, so does Paul Joseph Watson, so does Sam Harris so do a lot of others. Lets their ideas speak for them and leave their motivations to one side.
 

DMNknight

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I think you are confusing value and price... surely the value that people derive from him is unaffected by the amount of money they choose to donate? Of do you think that something cannot be overpriced?
What does money have to do with what JP has to say? (taking into account that all of his knowledge, reasoning and desire to help people came way before his fame)
 

Cray

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You have a point. The man has probably surpassed the point of education where he needs to believe conspiracy theories. Yet he has learned how to sell it to his audience.

Has JP done the same thing in your eyes?
It was an extreme example - I think a JP does have some desire to help, I also think he hedges his bets on a lot of things so as not to alienate certain of his followers. I think he is very intelligent and I think his professional experience has given him a knowledge of exactly what some people want to hear.
 

Cray

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What does money have to do with what JP has to say? (taking into account that all of his knowledge, reasoning and desire to help people came way before his fame)
Do you think all Doctor's choose their professions solely out of a desire to help the sick or do you think that some enter the profession to make a whole lot of money? For every Doctor who goes to war torn countries to help the sick and the dying there are those that drive porches and earn a very good living. Not saying there is anything wrong in earning a good salary as an educated person who helps people, but ascribing motivation to people to convince me that that what they say is somehow more worthwhile is what bothers me.

JP may have entered his profession to help people, he may also have entered it because he knew he would be good at it and could make a decent living off of it. Given some of the things he has said in the past he hardly strikes me as a purely altruistic person - he probably does want to help people in some sense, I also think he wants to make money off them...
 
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mmmig

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Fine, but don't mention his online university then -he makes money for creating content, 100% no issue, so does Alex Jones, so does Paul Joseph Watson, so does Sam Harris so do a lot of others. Lets their ideas speak for them and leave their motivations to one side.
Why it's an interesting use of the funds he's getting on Patreon
 

DMNknight

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Do you think all Doctor's choose their professions solely out of a desire to help the sick or do you think that some enter the profession to make a whole lot of money? For every Doctor who goes to war torn countries to help the sick and the dying there are those that drive porches and earn a very good living. Not saying there is anything wrong in earning a good salary as an educated person who helps people, but ascribing motivation to people to convince me that that what they say is somehow more worthwhile is what bothers me.

JP may have entered his profession to help people, he may also have entered it because he knew he would be good at it and could make a decent living off of it. Given some of the things he has said in the past he hardly strikes me as a purely altruistic person - he probably does want to help people in some sense, I also think he wants to make money off them...
Correlation and causation. Sorry but there's nothing in his current available content that makes me doubt the underpinning of what he does for a living. Listen to his stuff before the fame thing.
Sure, the fame has allowed to propagate his views very quickly, but that does not equate him to someone like Alex Jones, so it is a poor example.

I get your distrust. That this kind of attention could potentially corrupt a viable viewpoint. In your mind, it seems, he's already corrupt because of the money? Are Alex Jones and Jordan Peterson acting in the same way to you?

Dunno, I see completely different sets of behaviours (that are available to me)
 

konfab

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I think you are confusing value and price... surely the value that people derive from him is unaffected by the amount of money they choose to donate? Of do you think that something cannot be overpriced?
In a voluntary transaction, price is the best approximation of value that you can ever get.
 
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