The Jordan Peterson discussion thread

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
23,452
Unless his Doctor overprescribed him I fail to see how this addiction is anyone's fault but his own.
Apparently he had a paradoxical reaction to his anxiety medication. Which means instead of calming him down, they caused akathisia.
https://www.insider.com/jordan-peterson-treated-in-russia-for-addiction-daughter-says-2020-2

Jack Henry Abbott (1981) describes the sensation:[12]

...[It comes] from so deep inside you, you cannot locate the source of the pain … The muscles of your jawbone go berserk, so that you bite the inside of your mouth and your jaw locks and the pain throbs. … Your spinal column stiffens so that you can hardly move your head or your neck and sometimes your back bends like a bow and you cannot stand up. … You ache with restlessness, so you feel you have to walk, to pace. And then as soon as you start pacing, the opposite occurs to you; you must sit and rest. Back and forth, up and down you go … you cannot get relief …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia

Sounds like hell.
 

Urist

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
2,932
JP is doing the stereotypical thing that cult leaders do and has long, in-depth and good-faith debates with people who disagree with them.
Cult of logic, good faith, responsibility, discourse and sorting yourself out? Sign me up.
 

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
23,452
I fully agree that these drugs are highly addictive but blaming everything on "Western medicine" seems an easy way to wash his hands of taking some personal responsibility for his own addiction.
It isn't necessary "western medicine", it is more the culture of the practice than the science of it. This could also stem from different laws surrounding malpractice as well.
Doctors in "western" countries are far more accountable to society than doctors in a country like Russia. Which technically allows doctors in Russia to be a bit more risky.
 
Last edited:

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
23,452
I'm concerned about his meat-only diet, can't be healthy
It won't kill you, but evidently it didn't really work in JP's case.

Yet in a July appearance on the comedian Joe Rogan’s podcast, Jordan Peterson explained how Mikhaila’s experience had convinced him to eliminate everything but meat and leafy greens from his diet, and that in the last two months he had gone full meat and eliminated vegetables. Since he changed his diet, his laundry list of maladies has disappeared, he told Rogan. His lifelong depression, anxiety, gastric reflux (and associated snoring), inability to wake up in the mornings, psoriasis, gingivitis, floaters in his right eye, numbness on the sides of his legs, problems with mood regulation—all of it is gone, and he attributes it to the diet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/08/the-peterson-family-meat-cleanse/567613/

oof
 

Urist

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
2,932
I have my doubts about whether he was cleaning his own room, I'm guessing thats what started all of this.
We're all flawed, i'm pretty sure most psychologists become that because they're messed up themselves. Lots of respect for the man though... saying what he believes in the face of being somehow labelled a nazi for some reason. Stopped watching him, mostly because it seems that he said just about everything he has to say, across his lectures and interviews, becoming a bit repetitive. Agree with most of it though.
 

saturnz

Honorary Master
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
13,609
We're all flawed, i'm pretty sure most psychologists become that because they're messed up themselves. Lots of respect for the man though... saying what he believes in the face of being somehow labelled a nazi for some reason. Stopped watching him, mostly because it seems that he said just about everything he has to say, across his lectures and interviews, becoming a bit repetitive. Agree with most of it though.
its black box analysis, ignoring the realities of whats actually happening, try telling someone in North Korea their plight will improve by making up their bed
 

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
23,452
its black box analysis, ignoring the realities of whats actually happening, try telling someone in North Korea their plight will improve by making up their bed
What else are you going to do besides try and fix the things that you can control?

If you read the accounts of people in the gulags of the Democratic Socialist Paradise of the USSR, they got through by precisely doing that:
“Shukhov went to sleep fully content. He'd had many strokes of luck that day: they hadn't put him in the cells; they hadn't sent his squad to the settlement; he'd swiped a bowl of kasha at dinner; the squad leader had fixed the rates well; he'd built a wall and enjoyed doing it; he'd smuggled that bit of hacksaw blade through; he'd earned a favor from Tsezar that evening; he'd bought that tobacco. And he hadn't fallen ill. He'd got over it.

A day without a dark cloud. Almost a happy day.

There were three thousand six hundred and fiftythree days like that in his stretch.

From the first clang of the rail to the last clang of the rail.

Three thousand six hundred and fifty-three days.

The three extra days were for leap years.”
 

C4Cat

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
9,476
its black box analysis, ignoring the realities of whats actually happening, try telling someone in North Korea their plight will improve by making up their bed
You haven't read any of his books have you?
 

Ancalagon

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
16,562
I fully agree that these drugs are highly addictive but blaming everything on "Western medicine" seems an easy way to wash his hands of taking some personal responsibility for his own addiction.
You should read up more about the withdrawal effects of psychiatric medication before you pass judgment like that.

Read some accounts of how difficult it can be to get yourself off any psychiatric drugs. Seriously, do some reading and you will be horrified. I've done some reading of personal accounts of people wanting to come off these drugs. In some cases it was because they were recommended to an ex girlfriend and her and looked into them. In one case, a psychiatrist recommended a psychiatric drug to me - I am grateful every day that I did not ever take it.

Bear in mind that these drugs were prescribed by a doctor and Peterson himself is certainly aware of their potential pitfalls, and he still became addicted.
 

saturnz

Honorary Master
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
13,609
What else are you going to do besides try and fix the things that you can control?

If you read the accounts of people in the gulags of the Democratic Socialist Paradise of the USSR, they got through by precisely doing that:
have you got anything more than an account of one person, like a survey of some sort?
 

scudsucker

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
5,330
have you got anything more than an account of one person, like a survey of some sort?
And let's be clear, konfab is quoting fiction - Solzhenitsyn was not writing a historic account. He did spend time in the gulags but his prose was not intended to be a historic record.
 

C4Cat

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
9,476
What else are you going to do besides try and fix the things that you can control?

If you read the accounts of people in the gulags of the Democratic Socialist Paradise of the USSR, they got through by precisely doing that:
Viktor Frankl makes similar points in Man's Search for Meaning - book about his experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (really worthwhile reading).
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
“Dostoevski said once, "There is only one thing I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings." These words frequently came to my mind after I became acquainted with those martyrs whose behavior in camp, whose suffering and death, bore witness to the fact that the last inner freedom cannot be lost. It can be said that they were worthy of the their sufferings; the way they bore their suffering was a genuine inner achievement. It is this spiritual freedom—which cannot be taken away—that makes life meaningful and purposeful
 

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
23,452
And let's be clear, konfab is quoting fiction - Solzhenitsyn was not writing a historic account. He did spend time in the gulags but his prose was not intended to be a historic record.
That particular book was fiction, but calling it a non-historic account is pretty stupid. He literally had first hand experience of what it was like. Sometimes the best way to convey that experience is through fiction. Especially if you want a mass audience for it.
His other, non-fiction books like the Gulag Archipelago are historic accounts and portray exactly how he dealt with the situation, which was what he condensed into One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich.

The ideas that JP and Solzhenitsyn are providing nothing new. The philosophy was made famous by Aristotle, and then the stoics. There really is something to be said for trying to make small daily improvements in your life. Benjamin Franklin's approach to this is fascinating.
https://medium.com/stoicism-philosophy-as-a-way-of-life/the-stoicism-of-benjamin-franklin-21ed64abb4ab
 

Moosedrool

Executive Member
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
5,542
Thread Necro

This was awesome.
Holy shyte. This Iris guy was actually forced to think… That heavy breathing and sheer anxiety is genuinely something.

Yet he NPC’ed out.

Oh deer lord… “I uhm….” “To simply put it…” “We got an e-mail… hum…” “Jordan Peterson bad!!!”

View attachment 783068
 
Last edited:

copacetic

King of the Hippies
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
56,400
You should read up more about the withdrawal effects of psychiatric medication before you pass judgment like that.

Read some accounts of how difficult it can be to get yourself off any psychiatric drugs. Seriously, do some reading and you will be horrified. I've done some reading of personal accounts of people wanting to come off these drugs. In some cases it was because they were recommended to an ex girlfriend and her and looked into them. In one case, a psychiatrist recommended a psychiatric drug to me - I am grateful every day that I did not ever take it.

Bear in mind that these drugs were prescribed by a doctor and Peterson himself is certainly aware of their potential pitfalls, and he still became addicted.
Just to note that benzodiazepines are astonishingly problematic in particular, and let's be cautious in talking about the dangers of psychiatric drugs in such general terms.

The reason I say this (and I'm talking from personal experience here), is that when psychiatric medications are necessary, they can take a person from the brink of destruction, to survival. The stigma is real though (and often an internalised thing), and it's important we don't overstate, nor understate the dangers and benefits of a treatment, as it is always going to be dependant on so very many variables.

As for getting addicted to clonazepam (or any other benzo), well, it's pretty much a guarantee, if you take it for more than a few weeks consistently, and has nothing to do with your character, and is the simple result of a pernicious chemical that people are given too easily, and not warned about enough.

That being said, benzos are VERY good at what they do (acting as an anxiolytic), and there's a place for their use, in the short term.

Anyway, the reason I'm saying all this in the first place is that I am, and have, been using exactly the same drug (clonazepam) as Peterson, for about two years. Part of the reason I got here in the first place, was that I went off of antidepressant medication (due, largely, to the aforementioned internalised stigma), and ended up treating the resulting anxiety with entirely the wrong things, unfortunately, this included chronic use of benzodiazepines.

I've recently gone back onto meds, and am facing the prospect of (and starting the process of), getting off the clonazepam. Wish me luck, let's hope I don't have to go to Russia.
 
Top