The Jordan Peterson discussion thread

Ancalagon

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Holy shyte. This Iris guy was actually forced to think… That heavy breathing and sheer anxiety is genuinely something.

Yet he NPC’ed out.

Oh deer lord… “I uhm….” “To simply put it…” “We got an e-mail… hum…” “Jordan Peterson bad!!!”


Holy shyte. This Iris guy was actually forced to think… That heavy breathing and sheer anxiety is genuinely something.

Yet he NPC’ed out.

Oh deer lord… “I uhm….” “To simply put it…” “We got an e-mail… hum…” “Jordan Peterson bad!!!”

View attachment 783068
Holy crap he NPC'ed bad! Its like the NPC AI script got into an error state and didn't know what to do.

I must say, if you want to debate this stuff, you need to know your stuff really well. Had that been Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson interviewing him instead of a radio DJ, my God, he would have needed an ambulance. It would have been serious.

Like send him to the burns unit for a skin graft kinda serious.
 

Pegasus

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That particular book was fiction, but calling it a non-historic account is pretty stupid. He literally had first hand experience of what it was like. Sometimes the best way to convey that experience is through fiction. Especially if you want a mass audience for it.
His other, non-fiction books like the Gulag Archipelago are historic accounts and portray exactly how he dealt with the situation, which was what he condensed into One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich.

The ideas that JP and Solzhenitsyn are providing nothing new. The philosophy was made famous by Aristotle, and then the stoics. There really is something to be said for trying to make small daily improvements in your life. Benjamin Franklin's approach to this is fascinating.
https://medium.com/stoicism-philosophy-as-a-way-of-life/the-stoicism-of-benjamin-franklin-21ed64abb4ab
Interesting article
 

Bobbin

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I'm concerned about his meat-only diet, can't be healthy
I tried carnivore diet for about 45 - 60 days.

Went from 85kg's to 77kg's while on the diet. I was considered "too skinny" at 77kg's but I felt pretty good.

Stopped it, now I'm 93kg's less than a year later. I'm not a big foodie but I eat most things including takeaway while working. But I'm also working out quite a bit over the last few months so it's a case of fat and muscle both contributing to that.

Some part of me wants to revert back to carnivore for a bit though. I definitely felt better, just tough to maintain as a lifestyle (and I believe it's the sort of diet you can't cheat with to reap the benefit). I might pick it up again soon so it will be interesting for me to see the effect a 2nd time around.

I've heard many conflicting views around whether or not it is healthy long-term though. Honestly I'm not sure. But your energy levels are definitely more stable, you never crash or crave and your gut just seems so much more stable after a while (at least that's what I experienced).
 

Urist

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I tried carnivore diet for about 45 - 60 days.

Went from 85kg's to 77kg's while on the diet. I was considered "too skinny" at 77kg's but I felt pretty good.

Stopped it, now I'm 93kg's less than a year later. I'm not a big foodie but I eat most things including takeaway while working. But I'm also working out quite a bit over the last few months so it's a case of fat and muscle both contributing to that.

Some part of me wants to revert back to carnivore for a bit though. I definitely felt better, just tough to maintain as a lifestyle (and I believe it's the sort of diet you can't cheat with to reap the benefit). I might pick it up again soon so it will be interesting for me to see the effect a 2nd time around.

I've heard many conflicting views around whether or not it is healthy long-term though. Honestly I'm not sure. But your energy levels are definitely more stable, you never crash or crave and your gut just seems so much more stable after a while (at least that's what I experienced).
The fat in the banting diet worked better for me than any energy drink, lost 29kgs, went from fatso to dad bod. Though you might want to take some vitamins to prevent hair loss and stuff like scurvy.
 

Bobbin

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The fat in the banting diet worked better for me than any energy drink, lost 29kgs, went from fatso to dad bod. Though you might want to take some vitamins to prevent hair loss and stuff like scurvy.
A vague theory that was mentioned between JP and Joe Rogan interview regarding scurvy and why people on carnivore don't get it is because vitamin c quantity is necessary only with carbohydrates in a standard diet. But that's as much as they cared to talk on it. Wonder if there's any truth to that.

EDIT: (something like this) https://zerocarbzen.com/vitamin-c/

Another diet claim I'm curious about is that fat doesn't make one fat (The big low-fat fad). Carbs do. In addition low-fat products are generally worse. If I google this there's a few results that also apparently confirm it and your experience as well :)
 
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konfab

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A vague theory that was mentioned between JP and Joe Rogan interview regarding scurvy and why people on carnivore don't get it is because vitamin c quantity is necessary only with carbohydrates in a standard diet. But that's as much as they cared to talk on it. Wonder if there's any truth to that.

EDIT: (something like this) https://zerocarbzen.com/vitamin-c/

Another diet claim I'm curious about is that fat doesn't make one fat (The big low-fat fad). Carbs do. In addition low-fat products are generally worse. If I google this there's a few results that also apparently confirm it and your experience as well :)
False.

What makes people fat is eating too much, in terms of weight loss, it is the kilojoule intake.
Even the prince of LCHF Himself had to concede this point.
 

axsis

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What makes people fat is eating too much, in terms of weight loss, it is the kilojoule intake.
The caveat to this is that eating a high carb diet may cause you to become insulin resistant and will thus cause you to eat too much. The availability of soda/fruit juice allows people to drink their calories, which in turn makes it much easier to consume more. Low-fat products are generally bulked out with more sugar. Yes I am saying sugar is the major criminal here and should not be eaten in moderation but rather rarely if at all. It should be noted that fructose really only gets processed into liver glycogen whereas glucose, galactose and lactose can be used for muscle glycogen as well. It's also why LCHF/Keto tend to avoid fructose because ketosis only really occurs because of the depletion of liver glycogen.

Then there are high omega 6 oils like Canola/Soybean oil which are shown to increase inflammation nowadays and if you have read The Croissant Diet, it seems the fat quality is important and does give a possible explanation to why the French who ate lots of butter and ate lots of bread didn't suffer the same levels of obesity as America.

In addition to this is it is REALLY difficult to overeat when you are consuming just fat and protein. There is also a thermic effect to protein consumption (i.e. a calorie of protein is not the same as a calorie of carbohydrate due to how the body processes it) and protein and fat seem to be a bit more satiating than carbohydrates.

TL;DR Most LCHF diets (Banting/Keto/Carnivore) are probably more efficient for weight loss (and imo health given the accounts of people e.g. meatheals.com) and more successful (judging by success stories and n=1 data) because it helps increase insulin sensitivity and is more satiating.
 

Emjay

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A vague theory that was mentioned between JP and Joe Rogan interview regarding scurvy and why people on carnivore don't get it is because vitamin c quantity is necessary only with carbohydrates in a standard diet. But that's as much as they cared to talk on it. Wonder if there's any truth to that.

EDIT: (something like this) https://zerocarbzen.com/vitamin-c/

Another diet claim I'm curious about is that fat doesn't make one fat (The big low-fat fad). Carbs do. In addition low-fat products are generally worse. If I google this there's a few results that also apparently confirm it and your experience as well :)
Fats do make you fat. They however are better at regulating hunger hormones. Refined carbs tend to spike insulin which makes you more hungry, etc. Going on the carnivore diet usually means a decline in overall calories due to better hormone function, so weight loss is natural.
 

konfab

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The caveat to this is that eating a high carb diet may cause you to become insulin resistant and will thus cause you to eat too much. The availability of soda/fruit juice allows people to drink their calories, which in turn makes it much easier to consume more. Low-fat products are generally bulked out with more sugar. Yes I am saying sugar is the major criminal here and should not be eaten in moderation but rather rarely if at all. It should be noted that fructose really only gets processed into liver glycogen whereas glucose, galactose and lactose can be used for muscle glycogen as well. It's also why LCHF/Keto tend to avoid fructose because ketosis only really occurs because of the depletion of liver glycogen.
Here is the thing though, if you restrict your kilojoule intake, you do not have the kilo joule budget for stuff like fruit juice So your entire argument is a straw man.
To prove the point:
I googled a low kilojoule eating plan:
1st result: no refined sugars and no fruit juice.
https://www.essentials.co.za/lifestyle/health/7-day-diet-plan-to-help-you-lose-weight-kickstart-healthy-eating
2nd result: no refined sugars and no fruit juice
https://www.health24.com/Fitness/BeweegSA/10-day-eating-plan-part-1-day-110-20160509
3rd result: no refined sugars and no fruit juice.
http://www.eatingwell.com/article/17375/7-day-diet-meal-plan-to-lose-weight-1200-calories/


Then there are high omega 6 oils like Canola/Soybean oil which are shown to increase inflammation nowadays and if you have read The Croissant Diet, it seems the fat quality is important and does give a possible explanation to why the French who ate lots of butter and ate lots of bread didn't suffer the same levels of obesity as America.
The American diet was really carb heavy before the obesity epidemic hit. In fact it has always been.


Rossouw’s data showed something else: in certain populations where low-fat, high-carb diets were introduced, this had little to no effect on overall obesity. In countries like the US, Rossouw noted low-fat, high-carbohydrate eating practices had long preceded the current obesity epidemic – by several decades – indicating “other factors were primarily responsible”.

Importantly, even as obesity kept rising, CHD rates continued to decline where populations had reduced intake of dietary fat.

Rossouw went even further and suggested that, no matter what combination of fat versus carb we ate, obesity rates in developed countries would continue to rise. Changing dietary guidelines in Sweden provided proof. For around 30 years (from the 1970s onward), Sweden recommended and practised a low-fat “modified Mediterranean diet” to address high rates of cardiovascular disease. In the early 2000s, Sweden suddenly switched to a high-fat, low-carb eating model. Under both regimens, obesity increased.

Something else happened, too. As fat intake increased so did Sweden’s serum cholesterol levels. “Swedish researchers do not yet know if this change reversed the previously declining CHD rates,” Rossouw told Men’s Health. “It will be interesting to watch this natural experiment. I would predict their CHD rates will start increasing.”
https://www.mh.co.za/food-nutrition/the-low-carb-high-fat-debate/


TL;DR Most LCHF diets (Banting/Keto/Carnivore) are probably more efficient for weight loss (and imo health given the accounts of people e.g. meatheals.com) and more successful (judging by success stories and n=1 data) because it helps increase insulin sensitivity and is more satiating.
If they work for you then great. Any diet is better than no diet.
However if you look at the data, there isn't any evidence to state that they are more successful.

Low carbohydrate diets are NOT more effective for weight loss than balanced diets

The review confirms that reducing overall energy (kilojoule) intake over a period of time will result in weight loss.
https://www.health24.com/Diet-and-nutrition/Weight-loss/Are-low-carb-diets-more-effective-for-weight-loss-20140710
 

axsis

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Here is the thing though, if you restrict your kilojoule intake, you do not have the kilo joule budget for stuff like fruit juice So your entire argument is a straw man.
...
Your response is quite a strawman using really dubious sources. I wasn't even arguing the low kj doesn't work for weight loss, it does, it's just not sustainable or healthy imo. I will come back later and provide you with some papers which at least show that people were able to stick to LCHF more but it takes time to refind these things. I don't have the time currently to respond in-depth but the first diet plan you linked suggests treats like a two finger kitkat/jolly jammer biscuit. For anyone with blood glucose consistency issues, those small little 'treats' could spike blood sugar and cause them to feel more hungry, not to mention just bad in general. It doesn't seem very sustainable to me.

Also you completely missed the argument I was making about the obesity epidemic in America.

My main concern with these low-fat approaches is that fat is essential and these really push the whole 'lean meat' wagon which is based on bad interpretations of data.

One thing you and many others also neglect is how many of the foods (pasta/beans/cereals) are quite bad for people with say IBS, which is an increasing amount and often the incorrect diagnosis for colon cancer.

I also love the notion that 'if it works for you great but I don't really care to find out more'. This approach works almost universally and it's not really a diet it's more of a lifestyle. With my near zero fiber diet, I'm more regular, have more energy, no longer get bloated after eating, used to have minor joint pains, no more acid reflux and well to drive a certain point home, my cholesterol levels are basically perfect. Yes most of the benefits are from reduction in sugar but not all. I'd argue if you suffer any ill health you should at least try a LCHF diet to see if it alleviates some of the symptoms, if not even do the 30 day carnivore challenge like Joe Rogan did.


Fats do make you fat.
In the absence of carbs they really don't at least not by much, depends if you believe that anecdote but I'd wager it's replicable.
 

konfab

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Your response is quite a strawman using really dubious sources. I wasn't even arguing the low kj doesn't work for weight loss, it does, it's just not sustainable or healthy imo. I will come back later and provide you with some papers which at least show that people were able to stick to LCHF more but it takes time to refind these things. I don't have the time currently to respond in-depth but the first diet plan you linked suggests treats like a two finger kitkat/jolly jammer biscuit. For anyone with blood glucose consistency issues, those small little 'treats' could spike blood sugar and cause them to feel more hungry, not to mention just bad in general. It doesn't seem very sustainable to me.
What is more sustainable? Learning to moderate the bad things in life or abstain from them all together? This is why people who do complete exclusion diets like LCHF end up rebounding because they are not sustainable in the long term. Doing kilojoule control allows you to learn how to moderate your portion sizes gradually. Note I said kilojoule control, not low kilojoule.

My main concern with these low-fat approaches is that fat is essential and these really push the whole 'lean meat' wagon which is based on bad interpretations of data.
Jeesus...
All of those diets have plenty of fat, just because the products they recommend are low fat doesn't mean the entire diet is low fat. And I have never said that fat isn't essential. It is, which is why I always cook with a bit of butter.

One thing you and many others also neglect is how many of the foods (pasta/beans/cereals) are quite bad for people with say IBS, which is an increasing amount and often the incorrect diagnosis for colon cancer.
You are listing a condition where the cause isn't really known, yet blaming the cause on pasta/beans/cereals.
Please provide some evidence...


I also love the notion that 'if it works for you great but I don't really care to find out more'. This approach works almost universally and it's not really a diet it's more of a lifestyle. With my near zero fiber diet, I'm more regular, have more energy, no longer get bloated after eating, used to have minor joint pains, no more acid reflux and well to drive a certain point home, my cholesterol levels are basically perfect. Yes most of the benefits are from reduction in sugar but not all. I'd argue if you suffer any ill health you should at least try a LCHF diet to see if it alleviates some of the symptoms, if not even do the 30 day carnivore challenge like Joe Rogan did.
Spoken like a true believer. Seriously, the amount of LCHF cultists that utter that phrase blows my mind. A diet is a selection of food you consume, you are changing the selection of food you consume, hence you are changing your diet.
Changing your lifestyle would be doing something like going to the gym more often.

If you have any ill health, you should see a doctor. Not some quack on the internet who believes that cutting carbohydrates will immunise you against cancer.
 

Emjay

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In the absence of carbs they really don't at least not by much, depends if you believe that anecdote but I'd wager it's replicable.
If you eat excessive calories in the form of fat, they will make you put on weight, even if one only eats fat. If you sit down and understand how the body converts carbs, proteins and fats into body fat you will understand that this is not true. It will take about 90 minutes of focused reading and video watching to get it, but the information is out there.

And, a diet is a diet is a diet. The best diet out there is one that works for YOU as an individual.
 

Sensorei

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If you eat excessive calories in the form of fat, they will make you put on weight, even if one only eats fat.
Exactly. Pretty simple, if you eat excessive calories in the form of any macros you will gain fat.

Strange how people can't grasp that if you eat more calories than you burn you will get fatter.
 

Iwojima

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Just to note that benzodiazepines are astonishingly problematic in particular, and let's be cautious in talking about the dangers of psychiatric drugs in such general terms.

The reason I say this (and I'm talking from personal experience here), is that when psychiatric medications are necessary, they can take a person from the brink of destruction, to survival. The stigma is real though (and often an internalised thing), and it's important we don't overstate, nor understate the dangers and benefits of a treatment, as it is always going to be dependant on so very many variables.

As for getting addicted to clonazepam (or any other benzo), well, it's pretty much a guarantee, if you take it for more than a few weeks consistently, and has nothing to do with your character, and is the simple result of a pernicious chemical that people are given too easily, and not warned about enough.

That being said, benzos are VERY good at what they do (acting as an anxiolytic), and there's a place for their use, in the short term.

Anyway, the reason I'm saying all this in the first place is that I am, and have, been using exactly the same drug (clonazepam) as Peterson, for about two years. Part of the reason I got here in the first place, was that I went off of antidepressant medication (due, largely, to the aforementioned internalised stigma), and ended up treating the resulting anxiety with entirely the wrong things, unfortunately, this included chronic use of benzodiazepines.

I've recently gone back onto meds, and am facing the prospect of (and starting the process of), getting off the clonazepam. Wish me luck, let's hope I don't have to go to Russia.
Very interesting post.

I know someone who is currently struggling with his meds 4 months in. They've prescribed an anti-depressant to treat his depression and anxiety, but also prescribed a benzo based anti-anxiety med (Alzam) to be taken as and when required. He does not seem to be able cope off of the Alzam and now has to take them to sleep (perhaps a side effect of the anti-depressant as this is listed in the potential side effects) and sometimes even then it does not have the desired effect and must take an extra pill.

To me it seems he has become addicted to the Alzam to some degree, but the doctors do not appear to be too concerned about long term use. Any advice you could offer?
 

Emjay

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Very interesting post.

I know someone who is currently struggling with his meds 4 months in. They've prescribed an anti-depressant to treat his depression and anxiety, but also prescribed a benzo based anti-anxiety med (Alzam) to be taken as and when required. He does not seem to be able cope off of the Alzam and now has to take them to sleep (perhaps a side effect of the anti-depressant as this is listed in the potential side effects) and sometimes even then it does not have the desired effect and must take an extra pill.

To me it seems he has become addicted to the Alzam to some degree, but the doctors do not appear to be too concerned about long term use. Any advice you could offer?
When I was a teenager after I finish matric, I went into a super depressed state. Landed up getting put on anti-depressants. I was on them for a week and then I flushed them down the toilet without telling my parents. They put me into a complete brain fog / zombie state. Every day I thank my stars I don't have to live with that crushing sense of doom, or any dependencies. It took a while but I came right. Now I believe it was better it happened that way. Growth does not happen in comfort zones.

I don't have advise, but I do feel for people in this situation, because there is really no answer, is there? I would personally get off of the addictive drugs if I could. I live life by trying to take as little medication as possible as we have become too accustomed to trusting those little pills.
 
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copacetic

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Very interesting post.

I know someone who is currently struggling with his meds 4 months in. They've prescribed an anti-depressant to treat his depression and anxiety, but also prescribed a benzo based anti-anxiety med (Alzam) to be taken as and when required. He does not seem to be able cope off of the Alzam and now has to take them to sleep (perhaps a side effect of the anti-depressant as this is listed in the potential side effects) and sometimes even then it does not have the desired effect and must take an extra pill.

To me it seems he has become addicted to the Alzam to some degree, but the doctors do not appear to be too concerned about long term use. Any advice you could offer?
I'd be cautious offering any specific advice, as I'm not qualified to do so, and each individual and their situation is going to be different.

That said, when it comes to the chronic use of benzodiazepines, I'd be extremely wary of anyone (whether a doctor or not), who supports long term use without at the least being able to articulate the dangers of doing so, or worse, understanding the dangers, and not speaking up about them (although I cannot imagine why anyone would do that).

Your friend should seek a second opinion, from someone who is qualified to offer it. In this case, a reputable psychiatrist would be that person.

You certainly don't want to be using benzos to sleep, and you definitely don't want to be upping your dosage in order to do so, that is a spiral without an end, take it from someone who has been there.
 
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