The left and the "Nazis"

cerebus

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I doubt all SS knew what was going on... Werner von Braun was given a SS commission he couldn't refuse, for instance. And the 'false flag' Reichstag fire was not proven to be so. But the rest of the views are accurate. It must have been hell for the 'snowflakes' to see what was becoming of their society, their country.
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Yeah that Hitler sure did trigger some SJWs
 
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No, nowhere close to enough. But if we're playing the game of 'we probably would all have been Nazis', maybe it's worth considering who actually would have been the people standing against Hitler in our own society?
My understanding via my father, who was on a troopship heading for Singapore when it fell, and was diverted to Cape Town while his destination was rethought, where he spent some time, was that he was told in Cape Town of the wish of some South Africans to support Germany rather than the British. General Smuts apparently won the argument and Britain was supported. Since then I have read that the (or some) Afrikaaners were chiefly those minded to support the Germans. I would expect that desire to arise out of anti-British feelings rather than pro-German feelings, and very much doubt that the German mass killings of Jews and others would have been a motivation, even if known of at that stage. I have long held a suspicion-no more than that- that Churchill and Smuts did a deal: deliver SA support to the British, and you will get SA independence after the War. Independence did happen of course, but Churchill was out of power, although it is possible that his Labour colleagues were aware of such a deal, and were happy to honour it.
A parallel situation to the German, if nowhere so intense as the German 'solution', was the apartheid regime. My wife is Afrikaans, and was brought up on a farm near Bloemfontein by her grandparents. Her grandfather's antecedents landed here in 1684 from Holland (on the paternal side -from France on the maternal side), so the family was pretty solid old school Boer. (In fact he was a train driver first, which was a dream job for most at that time, but bought a farm after he was boarded.) The family as a whole did not support the party that introduced apartheid - the Nationalists. From my wife's standpoint apartheid had little effect out in the country, and was not much of an issue in their daily life. But the real underlying point is that apartheid was in fact implemented but without the active support of all Afrikaaners. I would hesitate to give or guess at proportions, unlike some.
I did come across a few people of UK descent who left SA because of their dislike of apartheid, but none of Afrikaaner origin: if there were any they would have tended to go to Holland anyway, so you cannot draw any conclusions at all from that. Indeed my own experiences are not proof of anything, but perhaps indicative, no more.
Many of my friends in my youth emigrated, but none to SA. SA was not seen as an option due to the unpopularity of apartheid in Britain at that time. (That was the late 50's , early 60's.)
In something of the same way during WW II not all of the UK population was anti German: rather more would have been anti Hitler. I had some German ancestry, although that was occasioned by the relative concerned not wanting to be conscripted during the Napoleonic wars, rather than any dislike of Germany/Prussia. There were some members of the Royal family (which has German connections) who were against WW II, and some socialites like the Mitfords. Some Irish were pro German out of hatred for the British: my other grandfather had been a Sinn Feiner until 1921, when he resigned out of disgust over 'the troubles'.
Some people in this country have suffered injustice in the past. We hear a lot about it from some politicians, seemingly intent on nurturing those grievances. But there have been legitimate grievances in many other places: apartheid is just one among many. I get the distinct impression, as an outsider, that the anti apartheid sentiments so commonly mentioned are somewhat whipped up for power purposes, and not kept in any sort of international perspective. Was what went on in the USSR under Stalin not rather worse than apartheid? Were the actions of native African peoples selling other native Africans to 'white slavers' (I have been acused on being one of those!) not equally reprehensible? I could go on and on back through the centuries and produce many more thoroughly evil regimes, some even worse to my mind than than more recent regimes that are reviled these days.
A sense of proportion is needed,and is too often lacking among the social networkers.
 
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You are aware of the terror campaign wrought by the Nazis in the run-up to the 1933 elections? That is like saying the Zimbabweans supported the Zanu-PF when they were being threatened and intimidated at the polls.

Yes, the Nazis had support, but they never held a majority, securing 43.9% of the vote and that was amidst a reign of terror, propaganda and intimidation, which would've inflated their votes and suppressed the votes of the opposition. Lets not forget how they pulled a false-flag to greatly discredit the communists and how Hitler used his position as Chancellor to further undermine opposition parties. The Social Democrats were forbidden from using newspapers to campaign in the run-up to the elections and when they did try and gather on the streets roaming bands of brownshirts would shut them down. At the polls themselves there were SS ''monitors'', ''overseeing'' the voting process.
All pretty true, but nonetheless the Germans put into action a large army, despite some of the generals being opposed to Hitler. They nonetheless went along with him. I am not too sure what that means to be honest. If you ask now what you get from people who were there is some sort of self justifying story of the 'not me' variety. People do suppress memories that are inconvenient, and genuinely come to believe that a more comfortable version of the truth is in fact true. In a small way I have done it myself: a story I used to tell re my schooldays, firmly in my mind as true, I now know to be untrue after finding an old school report book. I know of other cases where an uncomfortable truth has been removed from memory, but can be shown to be wrong from for example email records. I have investigated Revenue frauds where memory has been shown to be incorrect. In one case an investigator was convinced that he had covered a vital point under questioning, but my written contemporaneous note showed that to be incorrect. That is why in the UK we now use tape recordings where possible, and notebooks countersigned by the putative offender at the time of interview.
 

Emjay

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I get the distinct impression, as an outsider, that the anti apartheid sentiments so commonly mentioned are somewhat whipped up for power purposes, and not kept in any sort of international perspective. Was what went on in the USSR under Stalin not rather worse than apartheid? Were the actions of native African peoples selling other native Africans to 'white slavers' (I have been acused on being one of those!) not equally reprehensible? I could go on and on back through the centuries and produce many more thoroughly evil regimes, some even worse to my mind than than more recent regimes that are reviled these days.
A sense of proportion is needed,and is too often lacking among the social networkers.
Interesting and thoughtful post, thank you. And you are correct in your thoughts on what I selectively quoted. Welcome to identity politics and intersectionality.

All pretty true, but nonetheless the Germans put into action a large army, despite some of the generals being opposed to Hitler. They nonetheless went along with him. I am not too sure what that means to be honest. If you ask now what you get from people who were there is some sort of self justifying story of the 'not me' variety. People do suppress memories that are inconvenient, and genuinely come to believe that a more comfortable version of the truth is in fact true. In a small way I have done it myself: a story I used to tell re my schooldays, firmly in my mind as true, I now know to be untrue after finding an old school report book. I know of other cases where an uncomfortable truth has been removed from memory, but can be shown to be wrong from for example email records. I have investigated Revenue frauds where memory has been shown to be incorrect. In one case an investigator was convinced that he had covered a vital point under questioning, but my written contemporaneous note showed that to be incorrect. That is why in the UK we now use tape recordings where possible, and notebooks countersigned by the putative offender at the time of interview.
This is also evident how some here believe that slavery and Jim Crow laws were all due to the actions of the "Right", and describe it as being stock standard right wing politics. When in fact, these situations are lot more grey.
 
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Interesting and thoughtful post, thank you. And you are correct in your thoughts on what I selectively quoted. Welcome to identity politics and intersectionality.



This is also evident how some here believe that slavery and Jim Crow laws were all due to the actions of the "Right", and describe it as being stock standard right wing politics. When in fact, these situations are lot more grey.
Thank you. If the British Empire was in fact right wing (Shock !! Horror!!) then it would not have been the second of the European powers to outlaw slavery, nor would it have expended Royal Navy lives in attempting to put a stop to it.
In fact the whole subject of slavery is full of emotive anti white and anti British rubbish. I do not pretend that the slavery was not shameful, but do not accept that it was carried out solely by white people. I read recently about a slave ship, which had a crew of 24. It is inconceivable that such a ship could go to African shores and load up a few hundred slaves without local help. The local help does not take away any blame rightly attached to whites in respect of the trade, but it does put some of the blame on black people who put it about that they are pure as the driven snow in that respect, and only whites were to blame.
The plain fact of the matter is that greed is to be found everywhere and amongst all colours of people. Greed is the enemy: corruption is just one manifestation of it.
 

thestaggy

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All pretty true, but nonetheless the Germans put into action a large army, despite some of the generals being opposed to Hitler. They nonetheless went along with him. I am not too sure what that means to be honest. If you ask now what you get from people who were there is some sort of self justifying story of the 'not me' variety. People do suppress memories that are inconvenient, and genuinely come to believe that a more comfortable version of the truth is in fact true. In a small way I have done it myself: a story I used to tell re my schooldays, firmly in my mind as true, I now know to be untrue after finding an old school report book. I know of other cases where an uncomfortable truth has been removed from memory, but can be shown to be wrong from for example email records. I have investigated Revenue frauds where memory has been shown to be incorrect. In one case an investigator was convinced that he had covered a vital point under questioning, but my written contemporaneous note showed that to be incorrect. That is why in the UK we now use tape recordings where possible, and notebooks countersigned by the putative offender at the time of interview.
Germany had a rich military history going back to the Prussian Army. There were also number of senior commanders of Prussian stock who were born in to military families (Guderian and von Manstein were Prussian-born, for example), so the military culture, commitment to the cause and professionalism is fully understandable. A lot of these men fought for the Emperor during WW1 as well, so no matter who was in charge they were going to fight as it was effectively in their blood. Many also felt that Germany had given up too easily during WW1 - Guderian held this view - and as with a lot of Germans, they'd have felt that the terms of the Versailles Treaty were unjust so they had the proverbial ax to grind.

200-years of military tradition were not going to be torn down in a couple of decades.
 
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There was plenty of resistance to the Nazi regime from within Germany, from all parts of society - the churches, the public, even the army. There were multiple failed assassination attempts and coups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
The question that raises is why they failed. The initial attempts at 'cleansing' of Jews (I think it was in 1939) by 'eliminating' (=murdering) 'defective' Jews were halted (at least in theory) due to pressure from inter alia the Churches. But other attempts to stop the nazis were not successful.
 

Emjay

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Those social justice warriors was a bit retarded in their offense though. Took them quite a long time to realize they are actually bothered by what is happening to the Jews.
Even the New York Times had an admission that the Left tend to ignore anti-semitisim because it does not fit into their neat little boxes.
If anti-Semitism bypasses consideration as a serious problem in New York, it is to some extent because it refuses to conform to an easy narrative with a single ideological enemy. During the past 22 months, not one person caught or identified as the aggressor in an anti-Semitic hate crime has been associated with a far right-wing group, Mark Molinari, commanding officer of the police department’s Hate Crimes Task Force, told me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/nyregion/jewish-bias-safety-nyc.html

Is this further proof of Social Marxism?
 
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eXisor

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Those social justice warriors was a bit retarded in their offense though. Took them quite a long time to realize they are actually bothered by what is happening to the Jews.
Most Germans had no clue. There's an information blackout in times of war.
And before the war, neighbours were turning in neighbours and the atmosphere of fear made it difficult for anyone to do much. Many that tried were considered traitors.
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Germany had a rich military history going back to the Prussian Army. There were also number of senior commanders of Prussian stock who were born in to military families (Guderian and von Manstein were Prussian-born, for example), so the military culture, commitment to the cause and professionalism is fully understandable. A lot of these men fought for the Emperor during WW1 as well, so no matter who was in charge they were going to fight as it was effectively in their blood. Many also felt that Germany had given up too easily during WW1 - Guderian held this view - and as with a lot of Germans, they'd have felt that the terms of the Versailles Treaty were unjust so they had the proverbial ax to grind.

200-years of military tradition were not going to be torn down in a couple of decades.
I have never met Guderian, but I read one of his books years ago, and was impressed. I was also impressed by Adolf Galland. But I was young then. I feel that they were driven by what they perceived to be their duty. I can identify with that motivation: I feel it myself. It was very much to do with the success of the Royal Navy in the 1800's: 'Duty Sir! Duty!' was the watch word - amongst the best, that is. I suppose I took that aboard from the Hornblower books.
Certainly the harsh terms of the Versailles treaty helped people like Hitler to succeed. It probably gave him quite a lot of support - support which it is now inconvenient to acknowledge. Once you start down such a trail it is difficult to stop and change course. The feelings and motives are clearly very complex.
 

thestaggy

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The question that raises is why they failed. The initial attempts at 'cleansing' of Jews (I think it was in 1939) by 'eliminating' (=murdering) 'defective' Jews were halted (at least in theory) due to pressure from inter alia the Churches. But other attempts to stop the nazis were not successful.
Seizure of state apparatus.

They controlled what was needed in order to ensure that they controlled the population.
 

OrbitalDawn

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This is also evident how some here believe that slavery and Jim Crow laws were all due to the actions of the "Right", and describe it as being stock standard right wing politics. When in fact, these situations are lot more grey.
I mean, they literally were. Who do you think implemented them? I didn't say they are stock standard right wing politics of today, which would be nonsensical.

I've already pointed out the using modern day incarnations of the Democratic and Republican Parties don't really work as they've changed drastically in the last half century, and effectively swapped around post-civil rights era.
 

cerebus

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Yo!

This is a CiT thread not a political nor an ancient history thread.

Please put it back on track and take the rest elsewhere.
What's CiT? The whole purpose of the thread is for old man Nick to grouse about liberals.
 

Venomous

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What's CiT? The whole purpose of the thread is for old man Nick to grouse about liberals.
Lol,

I shall delete. Posting on phone. I did click on the right thread, but sometimes this new mybb goes to other threads...

My apologies for being wrong.
 

buka001

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Yes, I was using Q to troll the libtards because it afforded me the opportunity to expose their double standards. At the same time I also believed (and believe) it.

It's possible to do two things at once and to be consistent about it. Just because your cognitive dissonance affords me the opportunity to make you make a fool of yourself doesn't preclude me from being sincere about my positions.
You are such a spineless hack.

Your belief system falls flat on its face and you can't even stand up and say whoops I got this wrong.

Laughable.
 
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