The problem with Evil

DMNknight

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I ran across this in researching what it would be to define Evil. Ponderer, you are expressly uninvited from the discussion as I would actually like to have a discussion for once.

So please get yourself acquainted here:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

Yes... I had to choose a fsckign Stanford paper to quibble about but I only want to have a discussions about the following premises:
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  4. Evil exists.
  5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

It is unimportant to argue that actual existence of God personally. If you die and there's a lot of nothing, then that's it. Done.
If you die and wake up and have to account for how you spent your life, then let's best hope you weren't a giant cnut the whole time and actually managed to do something with your gold coins ;)

Instead, I would like to explore the thought that maybe Good & Evil are necessary in the Universe we live in.
That the above logical premises are flawed in that the fail to take the outcome of Free will into account.
 

Beyond.Celsus

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I've got one better.

The existence of God negates our reason to exist.
If you are of the opinion that we are here to prove our worthiness for heaven that is.

Almost the same premise
If God is omnipotent, he knows who will sin and to what extent before they are even born.
Even so, we are still born and those who have sinned still go to hell.

So if God exists and knows all, why are we even born and not sent straight to hell or heaven?
 

DMNknight

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I've got one better.

The existence of God negates our reason to exist.
If you are of the opinion that we are here to prove our worthiness for heaven that is.

Almost the same premise
If God is omnipotent, he knows who will sin and to what extent before they are even born.
Even so, we are still born and those who have sinned still go to hell.

So if God exists and knows all, why are we even born and not sent straight to hell or heaven?
Precisely why I would like to discuss what the outcome/purpose of Free will is.
 

saor

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Instead, I would like to explore the thought that maybe Good & Evil are necessary in the Universe we live in.
That the above logical premises are flawed in that the fail to take the outcome of Free will into account.
Do you mean to imply evil as synonymous with very bad, or evil as some supernatural state of affairs?
 

rietrot

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I've got one better.

The existence of God negates our reason to exist.
If you are of the opinion that we are here to prove our worthiness for heaven that is.

Almost the same premise
If God is omnipotent, he knows who will sin and to what extent before they are even born.
Even so, we are still born and those who have sinned still go to hell.

So if God exists and knows all, why are we even born and not sent straight to hell or heaven?
Not necessarily. It depends on how you view time aswell. The future didn't happen yet.
 

DMNknight

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Do you mean to imply evil as synonymous with very bad, or evil as some supernatural state of affairs?
It's probably a spectrum of behaviour rather than an outright black and white definition. As I said... I found this line of reasoning in trying to see what the definition of Evil was for myself.

I think, in the broadest possible terms, that Evil would be the malice aforethought intended or acted upon. Also, lets not get bogged down between thought and action, because that is also a spectrum where though could remain that way or tip into reality to become an action.

A bear attacking a person is a bad outcome, but not evil per se.
Luring a person into the path between a Bear and her cubs in order to do the person harm... that would be evil.

Malice aforethought, love that phrase.
 

Zoomzoom

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If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  4. Evil exists.
  5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

They left out one logical possibility. God can and does have the power to eliminate evil, and indeed everything (that is what omnipotent means) but chooses to stay his hand in an act of mercy (God is love) in order that as much / many of his creation choose good over evil and will not be destroyed when evil is.
 

saor

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Luring a person into the path between a Bear and her cubs in order to do the person harm... that would be evil.
To be clear: Evil there is just a word we've made up to describe the severity of the act (as tho we said the act was very very very bad). We aren't saying evil acts are motivated by some supernatural force. Evil is a terrestrial behaviour / a description of a terrestrial behaviour.
 

SauRoNZA

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Precisely why I would like to discuss what the outcome/purpose of Free will is.
I've always used this argument relating to God's supposed free will that it's nothing but a fallacy for the very sake that evil exists and he allows it to and therefore it's either pre-ordained or you really don't have much choice because it's serve him, or else.

So your summary of points pretty much totals why I tell Christian folk that even if I'm wrong and their God does exist then he can go **** himself because it was a rigged game from the get-go.

I'm personally of the view that one cannot be 100% good if you choose to live your own life because ultimately you have to be selfish and do someone else in to continue on your path.

So the only way to be 100% good would be to kill yourself to prevent a selfish existence.
 

Prawnapple

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We live in a universe governed by the laws of cause and effect. There is no possible situation where for instance, we can act free of causality. What you're describing would be libertarian free will. Although it feels like we're free, it shouldn't be confused as actual freedom from cause and effect.
 

Prawnapple

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If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  4. Evil exists.
  5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

They left out one logical possibility. God can and does have the power to eliminate evil, and indeed everything (that is what omnipotent means) but chooses to stay his hand in an act of mercy (God is love) in order that as much / many of his creation choose good over evil and will not be destroyed when evil is.
1) "God can and does have the power to eliminate evil" How do you know this?
2) "chooses to stay his hand in an act of mercy" - How do you know this?
3) "God is love" - How do you know this?
4) "will not be destroyed when evil is" How do you know this?
 
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