The racism related news articles thread

[daveza]

Transformation in this context means that all sectors of society should be reflective of the country's demographics.

So your answer is the same as the Nats, social engineering.

 

[ToxicBunny]

If only you could ask. The problem, of course is that even if I articulate you will, only an answer that you want to hear will be satisfactory. Anyway.

Transformation in this context means that all sectors of society should be reflective of the country's demographics.

Ok, so you are giving an answer for transformation that is hugely problematic since it ignores merit, it ignores local demographics, etc etc etc....

And no, I'm quite happy to get an answer that I don't want to hear as long as the answer has some solid reasoning behind it....

 

[Cray]

That's not what they want they say they want to do though. When it comes to land they are quite clear that only land that is not being used will be transferred. As far as I can tell anyway. I personally like what the EFF stands for I just don't like the militancy of it. There must be a better way than fighting.

Cough...

http://effighters.org.za/documents/economic-freedom-fighters-founding-manifesto/

Expropriation of South Africa’s land without compensation for equal redistribution in use.

 

[ngwe23]

That's not what they want they say they want to do though. When it comes to land they are quite clear that only land that is not being used will be transferred. As far as I can tell anyway. I personally like what the EFF stands for I just don't like the militancy of it. There must be a better way than fighting.

Same here. I wish they could raise above the gutter politics, but the thing is Malema's key constituency understands that kind of language so i think it is deliberate on Malema's part.

 

[Xarog]

This here proves my point. What harm does a T-shirt cause you? or writing on a wall? See how easy it is to undermine an issue that should be taken seriously.

It's not that the tshirt or the writing on the wall does anything by itself. The problem is that it encourages behaviour that other people thus encouraged might end up carrying out the act described in the message. To put it simply, it might result in white people being killed. This is why the "incitement to cause violence" is such a critical component.

"**** white people", which is hate speech, ought to be legally protected free speech. "Kill white people" should be proscribed, which it thankfully is.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Same here. I wish they could raise above the gutter politics, but the thing is Malema's key constituency understands that kind of language so i think it is deliberate on Malema's part.

Ultimately then, you want to live in a communist country, since that is roughly (in broad strokes) what Malema is putting forward.

 

[TrelliPaste]

Transformation in this context means that all sectors of society should be reflective of the country's demographics.

Who is going to pay for this?

 

[Xarog]

It may not be advocating violence but it is hate speech against an entire racial group. Would you defend the right of a white person to wear a "**** black people" shirt?

Racists need to be socially censured, not legally censured.

 

[Cray]

Racists need to be socially censured, not legally censured.

Agree, however it needs to be consistent and I was trying to get ngew23 to acknowledge this..

 

[porchrat]

Define land not being used then in terms of time periods, does it have to have buildings on it or not, etc etc..
What about strategic land purchases that are being used for 20 or 30 year land development plans?

Does the unused land include the vast swathes of open space in municipalities or unused municipal/government land?

I was going to respond with my own post but this basically sums up what I was going to say.

Making some vague idiotic statement like "unused land" is meaningless. I imagine very little land in private hands is truly unused. Most of what Juju and his muppet show consider unused is probably land held as an investment, held for when economic conditions are right to allow a farm to expand, land lying fallow etc.

Ultimately what Juju's vague statements will create fear, distrust and confusion. None of which translates to confidence in an economy. Not to mention that once he has created a system that allows him to take "unused" land without compensation he can twist that take eventually take whatever he wants. Thin edge of the wedge. Investors won't come here and people like myself, the productive middle class of this country that when pushed have options overseas, will simply leave and take their tax revenue with them.

 

[Xarog]

No I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't defend any one who wears a T shirt with "f*** white people" under the pretext of free speech. But in this forum any attack against blacks is considered free speech but where while people are concerned it is hate speech.

Penny's comments were arguably hate speech.

That does not detract from the fact that she has the legal right to say it, and she should have the legal right to say it. Same goes for the **** white people tshirt, and the same would go for a **** black people tshirt. Messages which advocate killing other people for general characteristics such as skin colour, on the other hand, is a big no no.

 

[ngwe23]

This is sort of the basic idea of what I see as a large issue with what the EFF wants to do. It is rather simplified but then again I'm not an economist so I could be wrong. I just like to think of things in terms I can relate to:

You can't just take assets from people who know how to leverage them to generate wealth and hand them to people with no skills and expect them to, even in the long run, just figure it out on their own. So you need resources and time to teach those unskilled people to leverage those assets.

See that bold sentence is the where the problem comes in for the EFF just as it did for Zimbabwe. When your government has the power to just take things without compensation nobody is going to invest any real money in this economy because their investment can just be taken away. The risk is massive. In the same breath the people who actually generate the wealth of this country at the moment, taxpayers like you and me, will leave en masse. So not only will the government be left with a fraction of the budget they're used to operating on but most of the folks with the real skills will have left.

At that point, with no money and no skills, how does one train the unskilled folks?

It seems to me that even in the long run you just leave everyone screwed with that approach. Well, not the guys with the real wealth and skills obviously... they will just leave and settle somewhere less hostile, but everyone else... screwed.

The people that own land today and are farming were not born with that ability, but they had to learn over time. It will take time but it is possible. The Zimbabwe issue was not borne of Mugabe's government seeing the need to redistribute land. It was more of a diversionary tactic and it worked.

 

[Xarog]

Agree, however it needs to be consistent and I was trying to get ngew23 to acknowledge this..

Aye, I'm sure you can see how I'm trying to do the same thing.

 

[porchrat]

This here proves my point. What harm does a T-shirt cause you? or writing on a wall? See how easy it is to undermine an issue that should be taken seriously.

It can incite others to do me harm simply because the colour of my skin.

 

[ToxicBunny]

I was going to respond with my own post but this basically sums up what I was going to say.

Making some vague idiotic statement like "unused land" is meaningless. I imagine very little land in private hands is truly unused. Most of what Juju and his muppet show consider unused is probably land held as an investment, held for when economic conditions are right to allow a farm to expand, land lying fallow etc.

Ultimately what Juju's vague statements will create fear, distrust and confusion. None of which translates to confidence in an economy. Not to mention that once he has created a system that allows him to take "unused" land without compensation he can twist that take eventually take whatever he wants. Thin edge of the wedge. Investors won't come here and people like myself, the productive middle class of this country that when pushed have options overseas, will simply leave and take their tax revenue with them.

Pretty much this..

Its about the details.

For me personally, the DA makes statements but relatively often backs them up with concrete long term plans etc....
The EFF just makes statements and never puts concrete action plans down in writing that can then be interrogated.

 

[ngwe23]

So your answer is the same as the Nats, social engineering.

More like reversing the effects of the social engineering that the Nats did.

 

[ToxicBunny]

The people that own land today and are farming were not born with that ability, but they had to learn over time. It will take time but it is possible. The Zimbabwe issue was not borne of Mugabe's government seeing the need to redistribute land. It was more of a diversionary tactic and it worked.

Hey?

Diversionary Tactic? Please elaborate on this.

 

[Deadmanza]

The people that own land today and are farming were not born with that ability, but they had to learn over time. It will take time but it is possible. The Zimbabwe issue was not borne of Mugabe's government seeing the need to redistribute land. It was more of a diversionary tactic and it worked.

Ok so for the next 50 years while these new owners learn the required skills to farm on a scale that they are able to produce food for the country, what happens in that time?

We fall further into zim 2.0?

 

[ToxicBunny]

More like reversing the effects of the social engineering that the Nats did.

Ok, so you are ok with oppressing a minority to give the majority a leg up then is what you're saying effectively.

 

[Cray]

Aye, I'm sure you can see how I'm trying to do the same thing.

maybe...