The rainbow nation is dead

krycor

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
14,360
#41
It's always been and always will be an IQ thing, but I don't think we'll ever be able to truly talk about it so in the meantime we'll perpetually run in circles chasing out tail and there's nothing we can do about it, except maybe get out. Even then you'll be blamed into perpetuity (see Haiti for an example).
I have to question your IQ for not being able to figure out that your wrong but hey, believe what you want. In the mean time a lot of top performers coming out lately are not always white and what they have in common is the general success factors of life ie access to education early, access to both parents who able to provide said quality education and teaching aid when needed and of cause teaching to read & reading to kid before 3yrs old**.

**studies show this has a huge impact.

What the author fails to mention is the massive rise of the black middle and upper classes within the last 25 years.

Sure, she is correct when she says poverty, inequality and joblessness amongst black South Africans, in particular, is pervasive, but that is between the black population themselves and not only in comparison to other racial groups.

Go to any mall, any Woolies, any trendy restaurant, any casino, and the majority of patrons these days are middle/upper class black population.

So yeah, there is still huge unemployment and millions of shack dwellers but there is also the polar opposite, of abundant wealth and prosperity.
The general wealth is not evenly shared by populous. When quality of education is still based on monetary system which is skewed did you really think this would change

Kids of middle and affluent parents seem to get further more easily as their social skills and stature is impressive.. though they not always the brightest tool in the shed haha tho often due to laziness.

If you take a graduate from university from a squatter and from an affluent area you will notice a difference even if they both attained the same results. This does impact hiring decisions early on and as some are aware, your 1st job makes or breaks you financially.

Opinion piece by a donkey (ie. they're wearing those EFF blinkers).

Fixing South Africa:
Step 1
Use our hard earned taxes to provide schooling and services instead of stealing it.

Step 2
Don't promise everything for free

Step 3
Enjoy a better future.
Schooling and this improving feed to university really is the best way along with slashing data prices.. sorry MNO shareholders. Causing stagnation in IT growth is unforgivable on a continent where others have ran a mile with it by forcing it.

Things are also going to get a lot worse if you just look at the population breakdown. Today is going to be remembered as peace time compared to what's coming.

- 50% of the SA population is currently age 24 or below. So not even in the workforce or just starting out.
- Only 5% of the SA population is age 65 or higher. This portion is going to start growing fast soon with people living longer these days.

We are going to have a lot more unemployment and people dependent on grants as time goes unless our economy can grow at rates never seen before. So more and more burden on the taxpayers until civil war. How to escape from this, I'm not sure.
This is my worry along with currency risk. While I don’t see government funding upskilling of unemployed easily, I do think there is opportunity in private funding in the form of income share schemes.. problem is gov needs to ease paperwork on getting businesses going.

I reckon whether SA sinks or swims will unfold within the next 18months as the next global recession hits and money gets re-allocated to riskier investment like in SA. Time will tell if we the better rock in the rubble this go round.. as long as politics becomes boring we will.

This quote from the article is a bit misleading, perhaps by intention from the author:

Per the StatsSA labour force survey (link) the rates are calculated as follows:

1 - (# employed) / (labour force); the numbers below are in thousands:

Black: 1 - (12 201 / 17 714) = 31.1%
Coloured: 1 - (1 711 / 2 201) = 22.2%
White: 1 - (1 855 / 1 986) = 6.6%
Indian / Asian: 1 - (524 / 591) = 11.4%

What the percentages hide is the actual number of people. Let's say e.g. that no white people are employed and that all those jobs are taken by black people. In that case the unemployment rate for black people would be:

1 - ((12 201 + 1 855) / 17 714) = 20.6%

That 20.6% would still be still be the highest in the world. Greece (the next highest) is at around 18% unemployment. Let's say everybody except black people are unemployed and all those jobs go to black people. In that case the unemployment rate for black people would be:

1 - ((12 201 + 1 711 + 1 855 + 524) / 17 714) = 8.0%

The 8.0% would put the black unemployment rate at around 11th highest in the world, just above Croatia and Venezuela - bearing in mind that all other groups are now 100% unemployed. The aggregate unemployment rate for the country remains at 27.6%.

So, we can say that South Africa has a structural unemployment problem and no amount of the typical South African transformation initiatives (AA, BEE, etc) will have a big enough effect on unemployment to actually improve the situation for the country. What is needed is massive amounts of economic growth.
Wealth transfer isn’t gonna cut it.. we need growth. While people detest AA, BEE etc despite all the crap abuse.. guess what, it worked to an extent and I’d say a bit faster than US which is pretty dismal given that they still have to force diversity decades later.

Of cause SA is not SA without the usual conservatives throwing a fit. I dunno if you look at the way things were headed prior to zuma it looked ok.. if they can continue and improve from that SA will be ok.. not great but ok.

Sadly though the risk of political turmoil here is high with such high youth unemployment numbers and gov cannot employ them. Unions make it worse..
 

Jabulani22

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
751
#42
From Penny Sparrow and Steve Hofmeyr, to Dianne Kohler-Barnard; from the Freedom Front Plus (FF+) to AfriForum --
False comparisons made with an agenda .
Maybe one of these is racist , the others are not like the one maybe ....
 

Zoomzoom

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Messages
4,055
#43
Fixing South Africa:
Step 1
Use our hard earned taxes to provide schooling and services instead of stealing it.

Step 2
Don't promise everything for free

Step 3
Enjoy a better future.
The only things I would add to this is subsidize practical adult education courses, like the Dept of Labour used to do. And step up access to SME loans with a heavy emphasis on small business. Or even a micro loan model that has been so successful in other African countries to facilitate home based start ups.
 

nightjar

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
4,381
#46
Who took the initiative to build ships and sail half way around the world. And who just sat in their huts. Just asking.
The ancestors who just sat in their huts (when they weren't raiding neighbouring tribes & stealing the cattle and women) had no need for AA, BEE etc but they still failed to do anything meaningful for themselves which is a good indicator of their future potential.
 

friedpiggy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
944
#50
A theory I came up with a while ago basically says that the ANC is doomed to fail in SA. If you look around the world, there are almost zero liberation movements that have successfully converted into ruling parties. This I think stems from the fact that they are so focused on liberation that they give zero thought to how they are going to handle things once they get it. So, suddenly the country is liberated and then they sit there going "Now what?"
 

RaptorSA

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
3,519
#54
I have to question your IQ for not being able to figure out that your wrong but hey, believe what you want. In the mean time a lot of top performers coming out lately are not always white and what they have in common is the general success factors of life ie access to education early, access to both parents who able to provide said quality education and teaching aid when needed and of cause teaching to read & reading to kid before 3yrs old**.

**studies show this has a huge impact.
I'm perfectly aware of how a Gaussian distribution works and don't disagree with you, so not sure what your problem is. In fact, the very nature of a bell curve means that it would be really dumb to discriminate against a single data point (a person in this case) based on a perceived probability of their general IQ and subsequent abilities. That's not the point I'm making. The point is that median demographic IQ matters and explains a ton if we look at success factors over a population aggregate **

**studies show this has a huge impact.
 
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
2,397
#55
The truth is that the black population grew so quickly for the last century or so that even if all land/jobs were held by blacks (assuming that all those jobs would exists in the first place) even then there would be high unemployment in the black population.
This is not the 17th century anymore. Countries don't have maybe only one or two million people anymore. Proportionally Agriculture is an ever dwindling source of employment for countries on prosperous courses. If you have the kind of unemployment we see in SA then land is just a place for the unemployed to stand on. Most of it is basically desert anyway. Without more or less industrial farming on arable land there's not enough food for everybody.
Land ownership is symbolic in the national debate. A talking point for nationalists. Black land ownership has been growing since the fall of apartheid. At a steady rate eventually almost all land here will be black owned.
But what if there are still millions unemployed then? As is likely. There's just not all that much arable land in SA. Even less when subsistence farming is the goal, because you need fairly fertile land to make a half decent living as a subsistence farmer and don't want to break your back in the sun and dust every day of your life. Which hardly exists in SA. Maybe if we were located in a tropical climate... Most countries where such a lifestyle is prevalent are experiencing the same issues everywhere. Lowering water tables. Environmental destruction. Dirt poor people. If subsistence farming in the desert is not the goal and the plan is to help only a few thousand new land owners to live wealthy lives, then what is the point of even bringing it up? Consider that agriculture in the Western Cape (a figure I know off the top of my head) accounts for only 4% of the economy here. And I just looked up like anybody can if they chose to and I see that agriculture in our entire country accounts for only 5% of employment and a measly 2.8% of GDP. Oh... And mining is only about 6% of GDP.
So any party, organisation or individual claiming that land is the answer to solve all problems needs a swift kick in the pants. Because they are lying. How can we have this much hooha about less than 10% of GDP?
We need increased urbanisation and urban organisation. Less crime. This whole land debate is actually diverting attention and energy away from efforts that can actually make a meaningful change. That is what will generate more jobs and give people higher quality of living. If we want to print more money then we need something to back that money up. Bakers, police men, barbers, furniture makers, artists, etc... etc... etc... Urban development is the real magic fruit tree. Above all we need to reduce crime. It is the wall that stands between SA today and a future, more prosperous, happier South Africa.
 
Last edited:

TelkomUseless

Executive Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
7,576
#57
10x faster population growth than any other group for over a century. Blames Penny Sparrow and Steve Hofmeyr for the resulting disaster. Makes perfect sense.
Add sells country to Guptas, treason actually, loot state coffers... blame whites because apartheid. Make it a race issue.Makes perfect sense
 

dj2381

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
1,834
#58
"Pearl Mncube is a public policy research intern at Frontline Africa Advisory. She writes in her personal capacity."

Her personal political capacity, no mention of the racism from the likes of EFF, BLF, or some members of the ANC? I wonder which one she supports?

"Over the last five years, South Africa has witnessed the rise of open and crass racism." And most of that came from political parties mentioned above.
 

thestaggy

Honorary Master
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
14,105
#59
A theory I came up with a while ago basically says that the ANC is doomed to fail in SA. If you look around the world, there are almost zero liberation movements that have successfully converted into ruling parties. This I think stems from the fact that they are so focused on liberation that they give zero thought to how they are going to handle things once they get it. So, suddenly the country is liberated and then they sit there going "Now what?"
You wouldn't be the only one.

The ANC has never left their liberation and struggle roots. That is all they can do. Fight and resist. Even if they have to fabricate enemies (land ownership, WMC). They cannot lead, they cannot push forward, they cannot govern. They have no solutions to SA's problems, many of which they created.

They've been in power for 25-years and they still talk about the continued struggle. Who the **** are they struggling against? Only thing standing in the way of SA is them.
 

bchip

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
826
#60
Wealth transfer isn’t gonna cut it.. we need growth. While people detest AA, BEE etc despite all the crap abuse.. guess what, it worked to an extent and I’d say a bit faster than US which is pretty dismal given that they still have to force diversity decades later.
Can you provide any studies of cases where this has worked?
I can only find global cases where it has not like (Malaysia)

It will always go contrary to every discipline, especially psychology, when you reward people
for something they had no control over, like the colour of their skin.

The only thing in history that has worked is rewarding people for the right motivations like working hard.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2017/05/18/race-based-affirmative-action-is-failing-poor-malaysians

This project is just one recent outcome of racially discriminatory policies which have shaped Malaysian society for more than 50 years. Schemes favouring Malays were once deemed essential to improve the lot of Malaysia’s least wealthy racial group; these days they are widely thought to help mostly the well-off within that group, while failing the poor and aggravating ethnic tensions. Yet affirmative action persists because it is a reliable vote-winner for the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO), the Malay party that has dominated government since independence.

Sounds familiar
 
Last edited:
Top