The Soul

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
Who taught you morals? Pretty sure your parents before the Bible so whos being irrational?
Nietzsche.

Yip
Sticks and stones
Right back at ya. :D

Yay glad you brought this up what does the bible say, every 50 years let your slaves free so if I'm captured and sold into slavery at 8 I get a get out of jail free card at 58 woohoo.
Nah.

I know enough to fight you on just about every point, I have read the bible once or twice ;) but considering you won't answer any of my (or anyone's) questions I just have to leave you hanging.
I've answered lots of your questions. I'm just not bothered about responding to the confused nonsense you were spewing when you were repeatedly telling me that you were agreeing with me when you clearly had NFI what my point was.

is the word of God (or bible) wrong? is the Old testament the word of God?
A testament is what a witness testifies to under oath. So it is fair to call the old testament the old covenant, and the new testament the new covenant.


Generally, Christians believe that the New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper as part of the Eucharist, which in the Gospel of John includes the New Commandment. A connection between the Blood of Christ and the New Covenant is seen in most modern English translations of the New Testament[20] with the saying: "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".[21]

Christians see Jesus as the mediator of this New Covenant, and that his blood, shed at his crucifixion is the required blood of the covenant: as with all covenants between God and man described in the Bible, the New Covenant is considered "a bond in blood sovereignly administered by God".[22] It has been theorized that the New Covenant is the Law of Christ as spoken during his Sermon on the Mount.[23]
Fail more.

Great dodge claim stupidity
Rofl. Guess it wasn't a real point after all. :ROFL:

No: Human dignity, is the measure of ones self worth and has nothing to do with a soul. Do you know the difference between a fact and claim?
Do you know the difference between a fact and a value? Clearly not.

You are focused on words people have told you instead of the facts so I pointed them out to you.
Not a single fact you've pointed to so far invalidates the claim that you've inherited a Christian ethos which you are treating as unconditionally true exactly like Nietzsche explained in that cute little screenshot quote of his I gave you on more than one occasion.

Cool story and all prove it, you cant and back to argument of ignorance. :rolleyes:
Give an alternative grounding and you'll rebut my claim. The fact that you can't and me pointing out the consequences of such an inability is not an argument from ignorance.

Just to add I completely agree that talking to you is a giant waste of time, once someone has made a claim on the internet they will stick to it whether they are right or wrong https://jamesclear.com/why-facts-dont-change-minds.
Right, which is why you don't get the hint every time I told you to stop treating me like I'm a Christian. Dumbass. :ROFL:
 

Scary_Turtle

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,238
I've answered lots of your questions. I'm just not bothered about responding to the confused nonsense you were spewing when you were repeatedly telling me that you were agreeing with me when you clearly had NFI what my point was.
:ROFL::laugh::ROFL::laugh: simple claims
A testament is what a witness testifies to under oath. So it is fair to call the old testament the old covenant, and the new testament the new covenant.
So not the word of God?
Fail more.
Rofl. Guess it wasn't a real point after all. :ROFL:
more bla bla
Do you know the difference between a fact and a value? Clearly not.
Yip, do you?
Not a single fact you've pointed to so far invalidates the claim that you've inherited a Christian ethos which you are treating as unconditionally true exactly like Nietzsche explained in that cute little screenshot quote of his I gave you on more than one occasion.
Not a single fact you've pointed to so far invalidates the claim that I havent inherited a Christian ethos. :sleep: this is getting old
Give an alternative grounding and you'll rebut my claim. The fact that you can't and me pointing out the consequences of such an inability is not an argument from ignorance.
You are making a claim then you must prove it or it stays a claim. You are tiring
Right, which is why you don't get the hint every time I told you to stop treating me like I'm a Christian. Dumbass. :ROFL:
Amazing you pulled the rabbit out of the hat so I can assume everything else you said was smoke and mirrors (BS). Thanks for continually proving me right.

Anyway play thing I have some IRL things I have to do for the next couple of days. Enjoy
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
:ROFL::laugh::ROFL::laugh: simple claims
Tell me again what we're in agreement about? :sneaky:

So not the word of God?
I've said since the start that I'm willing to proceed under that presumption, treating it as if that's true. Apparently your script can't deal with this, though, and so you just get stuck trying to repeatedly prove what's already presumed to be true.

Yip, do you?
Lol. Okay so how about you explain to me how the value of humans are established?

Not a single fact you've pointed to so far invalidates the claim that I havent inherited a Christian ethos. :sleep: this is getting old
Lol. Except for the fact that you espouse a Christian ethos insofar as you have espoused an ethos. :ROFL:

You are making a claim then you must prove it or it stays a claim. You are tiring
It shouldn't be hard for you to explain how your ethos is distinct from Christianity... but so far all we have is you just asserting that it's different, without any difference being identifiable. :confused:

Amazing you pulled the rabbit out of the hat so I can assume everything else you said was smoke and mirrors (BS). Thanks for continually proving me right.
The only thing you're proving is that you're a blowhard who doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

Anyway play thing I have some IRL things I have to do for the next couple of days. Enjoy
Run away with your tail inbetween your legs.:ROFL:

Guess it finally dawned on you that trying to debunk Christianity as a way to attack my points is utterly futile, huh? :sneaky:
 

Grant

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
47,003
No! But I do think it's likely there is more to us than just our biology and quite possible we have a 'soul' that survives death of the physical body.
i tend to believe there is something else going on that we have yet to discover or understand.
if one considers animals, there is a huge range of smell, sound and light frequencies upon which their very survival depends - most of which are undetectable to humans. we cannot see wind, we know its there because we can feel it.
death is determined by a complete lack of cardiac activity, organs no longer obtain oxygenated blood and they begin failing, one after the other.
the brain suffers the same fate. the brain like other organs, begins to shut down and begins dying.
it would appear by currently available equipment able to measure activity, it takes some time for this organ to completely die at a cellular level. one is left to wonder what is going on during this period and at what level is there some form of consciousness - cellular or molecular.

Researchers at NYU's Langone Medical Center have conducted a study of patients who have experienced near-death experiences, and the results are intriguing and chilling. Dr. Sam Parnia, the director of resuscitation research at NYU Langone, joins CBSN to discuss the findings of this mind bending study.



Thomas Fleischmann has been an emergency physician since 1982. Since 2005 he has worked as the director of emergency medical units in Germany and Switzerland. As well as being a fellow of the British College of Emergency Medicine and the European Society for Emergency Medicine,
 
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LD50

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
1,572
i tend to believe there is something else going on that we have yet to discover or understand.
if one considers animals, there is a huge range of smell, sound and light frequencies upon which their very survival depends - most of which are undetectable to humans. we cannot see wind, we know its there because we can feel it.
death is determined by a complete lack of cardiac activity, organs no longer obtain oxygenated blood and they begin failing, one after the other.
the brain suffers the same fate. the brain like other organs, begins to shut down and begins dying.
it would appear by currently available equipment able to measure activity, it takes about 20 minutes for this organ to completely die at a cellular level. one is left to wonder what is going on during this period and at what level is there some form of consciousness - cellular or molecular.






So what are you saying?
 

Grant

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
47,003
So what are you saying?
what i am saying is there is some place in our brain where consciousness / soul or whatever term may be used, is located, or comes from.
"religion" has it's answer or teachings, science is yet to get there.
i have been atheist my entire life, so i'm on the side of science.
having said that, my entire life i have been fascinated as to know what is going on with us in those moments of death - the transition from living to dead.
my own belief is when we die, would be similar to falling asleep, but never waking up again.
for example - we go to sleep at night then wake up in the morning without having any dream, its a gap in time of nothingness, an 8 hour shutdown - this is pretty much what i expect death to be like - just never waking up from that shutdown.

however, one looks at all these "near death experiences", something i regard with huge skepticism.
but then one looks at commentary from physicians in critical care, emergency medicine, anesthesia, cardiology etc, and the information they get back from many patients they have resuscitated and brought back from clinical death - the recollection from these patients follows a near identical pattern - this cuts across cultures, religion, geographic location etc. as skeptical as i may be, it's difficult to ignore the similarities.

from my own personal experience, i was with my father when he was dying. he had cancer.
i was called to my parents home one night, i pull into to the driveway to see my aunt's car there, as well as the doctor's car.
I get inside, go see my father - he is barely conscious and call the doctor aside. the doctor tells me he gave my father a pethidine injection about an hour prior. so i ask the doctor who much time he thinks my father has left. he tells me "in his experience, perhaps an hour or two", he then tells me his is going to give my father another injection in about 30 minutes - which he does.
another hour passes and my father is totally motionless, up to the eyeballs in pethidine and barely breathing or conscious.
my mother is lying on the bed next to him.
suddenly, his eyes open and he turns his head and looks at my mother and says to her "i'm going to my father".
he says this in a completely lucid manner, no slurring, no drawn out effort - like he was 100% healthy.
he says this, looks away from her and is dead.
from that day until now, i remain baffled.
his father died before i was born, my parents were never ever religious in any way.
for me this was a case of "what the fukk was that about"
i doubt it was any religious reference, his father had been dead for so long that i dont even remember him being brought up in conversation during my life, to the extent i know nothing about him but his name, absolutely nothing else.
the only conclusion i was able to come to, is my father's sudden statement comes out of some form of hallucinogenic reaction from the medication used during the onset of death.
the problem with my theory was the medication - ketamine is well known to cause this type of occurrence, not pethidine.
so for that brief moment, both body and brain were able to override the massive amounts of analgesia that had been administered. one can only assume that energy came from a place in the brain medication was unable to reach.
after many years of pondering this very strange event, the only thing that makes any sense to me is the possibility of some kind of chemical reaction happening within the brain during the dying process.

question is, where is this happening within the brain, and how long does it continue - at what point, at a cellular or molecular level of decay does everything really end.
this is something science has yet been unable to determine.
religion provides a convenient but implausible answer.

its all very puzzling. consciousness, awareness, or soul - whatever term one chooses, is definitely with us.
it cannot be measured or quantified in any physical manner thusfar, but it is there.
where it may come from, where it ends, or where it may go to, who knows.
but there is would seem there is definitely more to the physical body as we know it.
for now, it appears consensus refers to this additional extra to the physical, as the soul, or consciousness .
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,550
the recollection from these patients follows a near identical pattern - this cuts across cultures, religion, geographic location etc. as skeptical as i may be, it's difficult to ignore the similarities.
Sorry for your loss and thanks for sharing this. I'd say the identical patterns come from the fact that they are all human beings, with brains. It's like you've said, there is some correlation between brain activity while alive and the shutting down process / post shut-down process. I also agree that it's certainly all within our physical body. I have no reason to entertain any idea that something may exist outside the physical body concerning consciousness, or the soul unless science says otherwise.

When it comes to people's death in the families, I don't like to delve too deep as I have no intention of offending or diminishing the person's life / death, or their very being in any way.

Edit: Holy Koolaid has some vids about NDE's:
I haven't watched it yet, but it's on my list.
 

LD50

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
1,572
what i am saying is there is some place in our brain where consciousness / soul or whatever term may be used, is located, or comes from.
"religion" has it's answer or teachings, science is yet to get there.
i have been atheist my entire life, so i'm on the side of science.
having said that, my entire life i have been fascinated as to know what is going on with us in those moments of death - the transition from living to dead.
my own belief is when we die, would be similar to falling asleep, but never waking up again.
for example - we go to sleep at night then wake up in the morning without having any dream, its a gap in time of nothingness, an 8 hour shutdown - this is pretty much what i expect death to be like - just never waking up from that shutdown.

however, one looks at all these "near death experiences", something i regard with huge skepticism.
but then one looks at commentary from physicians in critical care, emergency medicine, anesthesia, cardiology etc, and the information they get back from many patients they have resuscitated and brought back from clinical death - the recollection from these patients follows a near identical pattern - this cuts across cultures, religion, geographic location etc. as skeptical as i may be, it's difficult to ignore the similarities.

from my own personal experience, i was with my father when he was dying. he had cancer.
i was called to my parents home one night, i pull into to the driveway to see my aunt's car there, as well as the doctor's car.
I get inside, go see my father - he is barely conscious and call the doctor aside. the doctor tells me he gave my father a pethidine injection about an hour prior. so i ask the doctor who much time he thinks my father has left. he tells me "in his experience, perhaps an hour or two", he then tells me his is going to give my father another injection in about 30 minutes - which he does.
another hour passes and my father is totally motionless, up to the eyeballs in pethidine and barely breathing or conscious.
my mother is lying on the bed next to him.
suddenly, his eyes open and he turns his head and looks at my mother and says to her "i'm going to my father".
he says this in a completely lucid manner, no slurring, no drawn out effort - like he was 100% healthy.
he says this, looks away from her and is dead.
from that day until now, i remain baffled.
his father died before i was born, my parents were never ever religious in any way.
for me this was a case of "what the fukk was that about"
i doubt it was any religious reference, his father had been dead for so long that i dont even remember him being brought up in conversation during my life, to the extent i know nothing about him but his name, absolutely nothing else.
the only conclusion i was able to come to, is my father's sudden statement comes out of some form of hallucinogenic reaction from the medication used during the onset of death.
the problem with my theory was the medication - ketamine is well known to cause this type of occurrence, not pethidine.
so for that brief moment, both body and brain were able to override the massive amounts of analgesia that had been administered. one can only assume that energy came from a place in the brain medication was unable to reach.
after many years of pondering this very strange event, the only thing that makes any sense to me is the possibility of some kind of chemical reaction happening within the brain during the dying process.

question is, where is this happening within the brain, and how long does it continue - at what point, at a cellular or molecular level of decay does everything really end.
this is something science has yet been unable to determine.
religion provides a convenient but implausible answer.

its all very puzzling. consciousness, awareness, or soul - whatever term one chooses, is definitely with us.
it cannot be measured or quantified in any physical manner thusfar, but it is there.
where it may come from, where it ends, or where it may go to, who knows.
but there is would seem there is definitely more to the physical body as we know it.
for now, it appears consensus refers to this additional extra to the physical, as the soul, or consciousness .
Thank you for taking the time with this response.
All I can say to this is who knows? I know that with say liver cancer the patient absorbs so much toxins as a result of a non-functioning liver, that it DOES in fact affect the brain. I saw that with my dad being extremely confused towards the end.
 
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