The UCT - Cecil John Rhodes Statue Thread

[ProfA]

Very different people. But people like Hitler are still being discussed, so their legacy lives on for different reasons.

I'm not in favor of renaming things, it smacks of revisionist history

Very different people in your opinion. And surely the opinion of the majority is the ones that count no?

 

[Nerfherder]

Very different people in your opinion. And surely the opinion of the majority is the ones that count no?

I spose you are on the Hitler scholarship? Or do you ride the Husain train to work everyday?

 

[FoXtroT]

UCT’s so-called Activists are Childish
Posted on 11 March 2015, 03:50 by Samantha Bekebeke

The issue of the Cecil John Rhodes statue is not new to controversial debate among UCT students as to whether the statue should be removed or not. Yesterday, the pure anger and disapproval of the statue was, yet again, made clear by protesting students. The motive here is that the statue should be removed and abolished because it is a painful reminder to Black students on campus about the history of Black people. The outlook: the statue should be removed because, they argue, it is a constant reminder to the students on campus of South Africa’s history of imperialism, dispossession and exploitation. Not too many years ago, a Black UCT student even made a comment that “We were made painfully aware that this University was not built for us”.

Rhodes was not a hero. The realisation of this is not a new one. There is a rather thick line between the celebration of a hero, and the value and veneration of history. A thick line which has been crossed. Three points are made here: firstly, the implementation of the protest; Secondly, the relevance of the statue (this is a minimal view); and thirdly, the basis of this article, the reasoning and ideology of Black people today.

As a pro-black educated woman, I would not want to be associated with the action of Chumani Maxwele’s poorly executed “revolutionary” actions, and his misguided representation of Black liberty. Firstly, the execution of the protest was childish and repulsive. Protest action should not only be about you achieving your desired goal, but also taking into consideration the consequences of your actions. I will not be wasting any time on this section as it is undebatable that the implementation was distasteful.

It is neither significant nor relevant to discuss whether there should be changes in South Africa, or even more specifically, institutions in which we identify ourselves with. There undoubtedly should be. What should be concentrated on is the task in figuring out how exactly this should be done. Pro-Black UCT students need to remove their so-called black-saviour-liberation badge off their shirts, and actually think like individuals who have been exposed to much more knowledge. UCT students, mainly Black students, are fighting the wrong fight.

The reasoning here is that the presence of the statue is a reminder of the painful past of Black people, and a struggle that led to nothing. The tempting resolution is this: removing the statue and also imposing a slightly self-interested and distorted view of South African history. The only thing this unhelpful rewriting of history does is follow the same way of how the supercilious, ignorant colonialists dealt with their surroundings. You cannot expect your version of the past to be held up as the only version of the past. After all, as George Orwell wrote in 1984:

“Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past”.
I do not disagree with the fact that the statue in itself serves as a symbol. The question here is, a symbol of what? If you, as a current Black individual, see these memorials as nothing but a reminder of slavery, exploitation, and the celebration of the oppressive history of South Africa, then you, as a Black individual, have absolutely no respect for the history of South Africa. Aside, I understand that my article may be read with the angry heart of a fellow Black student who may think I am in support of the man, Cecil John Rhodes himself, or the ideology that such painful reminders should be swept off with no offence. Hopefully this is not the case, as this is not my intention.

Past Black freedom and Liberty fighters had one main objective: other than eradicating the oppressive force and return of our land, there were hopes that the following generation of Black children would have a different mind-set due to the ruling of mental slavery of oppressive history, stolen history and the fight between it all. Obviously and unfortunately, this basis was not executed. The struggle was not so educated minds will resort to barbaric methods of protest. The struggle serves, to us, as a reminder; a challenge for this generation to transform our view of the past. Our past should not be seen as uncomfortable: we dare not forget; and if this statue is a reminder, then it is doing its job. As indicated by the protest, no, it is not a reminder of the dehumanisation and subordination of black people, but rather (now) the triumph and symbolic reminder of our journey. What we as the new evolving generation need to concentrate on now is finding comfortability within our struggle, and embracing every ugly part of it. This part of history did happen; it should not be disregarded because it makes you uncomfortable. This cause tells us nothing about the actual statue and your perceived end results and reasoning, but everything about your mind-set. And to put it crudely, this mind-set is nothing but an embarrassment.

If we remove all the statues that commemorate colonialism and apartheid we would be erasing an aspect of our past and would be pretending it never happened. In this case, you are being no different to white people who tell Black people that “the past is the past, get over it”. Cecil John Rhodes, along with all those ghastly past ministers will be carted away like insignificance: THEY ARE NOT INSIGNIFICANT. If anything, the only offending part about this argument is that THIS (as Black people) is what you think of when you see elements of South Africa’s history: with a complete blind eye of the main point, a point that especially our generation should absorb and delegate.

If you, as these self-proclaimed pro-black revolutionist that you claim to be, should be advocating for anything, it should be why there are no prominent Black figures that contributed to South Africa history on the land of this institution, instead of breaking South Africa’s history into pieces which you find comfortable. We need to learn to stop breaking, but specialise in building. How will we be able to remember, learn and unlearn the doctrines of the past if we have erased it as if it never happened? If you are looking for a cause, ask why South Africa’s true heroes remain unsung on this campus, and why we have no statues of them. “You cannot touch one group of South Africa’s symbols without listening to it first”.

This oppressive history, as painful as it is to Black people, is not the determining factor of South Africa. South Africa’s present and future, even though indicated as a flowery opposite of the past on paper, is not too much different from the past in reality. Stop skipping steps: what exactly will be achieved from this? Please note that this question should be answered without trying to sound like a visionary, unrealistic revolutionist. If, in the current state of our nation, you see no profound value or relevance in the oppressive history of South Africa, regardless of how dark and ugly it may seem, then you see no value in South Africa’s history as a whole- the struggle was a struggle against something; in other words, it comes from something, why do we choose to disregard that.

Finally, this is not necessary for whatever end goal is trying to be achieved. Why? Because I believe there is an important time in the history of my ancestors that should be honoured and remembered without guilt or shame. Anger may be an element entrenched, undoubtedly and rightfully so, but it does not change the brutal fact that indeed this unfortunate period did happen in South Africa. There are many ways to tackle and address this period and the seemingly perpetual footsteps left on our doorstep, but this is not one of them. In fact, from a different view, we have more important and real South African issues that need South African solutions, from these very same South African students. Grow up. The statue, in essence, holds no real oppressive substance to you.

Today’s students show nothing but complete ignorance to South Africa’s history. Also, the comparison between the Cecil John statue and the hypothetical example of a Hitler statue in a German institution is extraneous and useless. Stop looking at the history of other nations and trying to find an element of South Africa in it: South Africa has a unique history, and looking intrinsically into the history of our nation should not be considered taboo. This does nothing but display and utter obliviousness and inconsideration of our ancestors, our emancipation and triumph, regardless of how far we as a nation and Black people still have to go. So by all means, fight the good fight, it is your right as a “free” citizen of your country anyway; however, put the ignorance and ego aside and learn how to fight the right fight, instead of trying to impose a new but self-absorbed and inaccurate account of the history of all South Africans, just in exchange for a good look.

http://bonfiire.com/cape-town/2015/03/11/ucts-so-called-activists-are-childish/

A very good article written about the statue and the way this ideological 'revolution' is being perpetuated.

 

[hj2k_x]

http://bonfiire.com/cape-town/2015/03/11/ucts-so-called-activists-are-childish/

A very good article written about the statue and the way this ideological 'revolution' is being perpetuated.

Excellent article, that.

 

[ellyally]

http://bonfiire.com/cape-town/2015/03/11/ucts-so-called-activists-are-childish/

A very good article written about the statue and the way this ideological 'revolution' is being perpetuated.

Well written indeed...

I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what destroying this will achieve and how its going to change lives in this country. But apparently its close minded to ask logical questions like, why can't this time and energy be spent on real problems in this country, so I don't expect answers here.

 

[AntiGanda]

Bro...

The pyramids where built by the Nubians so don't wonder too hard about what the "blacks" where up to, they kept busy

The Nubians arrived later didn't they?

 

[The_Right_Honourable_Brit]

http://bonfiire.com/cape-town/2015/03/11/ucts-so-called-activists-are-childish/

A very good article written about the statue and the way this ideological 'revolution' is being perpetuated.

Very well-written. There are also other points to be made regarding the perservation of the statue.

 

[Nerfherder]

The Nubians arrived later didn't they?

Tech came from nubia, the old Kingdom is from the south

 

[AntiGanda]

Tech came from nubia, the old Kingdom is from the south

Just for the record:

Old Kingdom (2686–2181 BC) - The great pyramids were built (Giza etc)

Third Intermediate Period (1069–653 BC)

The Ku****e king Piye left his Nubian capital of Napata and invaded Egypt around 727 BC. They were from Sudan.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

Both the Khoisan and Bantu people were a primitive hunter gatherer society at the time of the arrival of white colonialists.

The only step down would be to return to cave dwelling.

Just how is it possible to disadvantage such a people when they were in a position to learn and progress by immersion except they didn't and now we have a huge problem.

Those that seek to learn and improve themselves will do so regardless of their environment. Many a person in history has died as a heretic in pursuit of forbidden knowledge.

Don't tell me blacks are disadvantaged. Any time they want to join us in the modern world, all they have to do is want it and make the effort.

 

[DA-LION-619]

Both the Khoisan and Bantu people were a primitive hunter gatherer society at the time of the arrival of white colonialists.

The only step down would be to return to cave dwelling.

Just how is it possible to disadvantage such a people when they were in a position to learn and progress by immersion except they didn't and now we have a huge problem.

Those that seek to learn and improve themselves will do so regardless of their environment. Many a person in history has died as a heretic in pursuit of forbidden knowledge.

Don't tell me blacks are disadvantaged. Any time they want to join us in the modern world, all they have to do is want it and make the effort.

That post gave me cancer.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

That post gave me cancer.

My condolences to the cancer.

 

[AthenianOwl]

That post gave me cancer.

Sorry to hear that

 

[AntiGanda]

Both the Khoisan and Bantu people were a primitive hunter gatherer society at the time of the arrival of white colonialists.

The only step down would be to return to cave dwelling.

Just how is it possible to disadvantage such a people when they were in a position to learn and progress by immersion except they didn't and now we have a huge problem.

Those that seek to learn and improve themselves will do so regardless of their environment. Many a person in history has died as a heretic in pursuit of forbidden knowledge.

Don't tell me blacks are disadvantaged. Any time they want to join us in the modern world, all they have to do is want it and make the effort.

They mentioned something about UCT favouring white people. Did anyone understand that point. It all looked like pseudo-philosophy anyhow.

 

[ellyally]

They mentioned something about UCT favouring white people. Did anyone understand that point. It all looked like pseudo-philosophy anyhow.

Haven't seen it(can't recall, maybe I did, so many times the race card is pulled, hard to keep track of which one people talk about), but wouldn't be surprised. There is always a race card to be played somewhere... UCT is only 30%'ish white, so, they can play the card all they want. Stats speak for themselves. This problem is country wide at all universities... Many don't qualify even with the bar being continually lowered over the years, but instead of blaming ones poor performance for not being accepted, its easier to play the race card.

 

[jansdejager]

"Why I photographed these two cleaners at the foot of UCT’s Rhodes statue"

http://www.thedailyvox.co.za/why-i-photographed-these-two-cleaners-at-the-foot-of-ucts-rhodes-statue

 

[Sherbang]

Both the Khoisan and Bantu people were a primitive hunter gatherer society at the time of the arrival of white colonialists.

The only step down would be to return to cave dwelling.

Just how is it possible to disadvantage such a people when they were in a position to learn and progress by immersion except they didn't and now we have a huge problem.

Those that seek to learn and improve themselves will do so regardless of their environment. Many a person in history has died as a heretic in pursuit of forbidden knowledge.

Don't tell me blacks are disadvantaged. Any time they want to join us in the modern world, all they have to do is want it and make the effort.

Don't know if you're trolling or are really so ignorant

 

[MickeyD]

Have the faeces throwers been identified and charged criminally yet?

 

[Space_Chief]

Both the Khoisan and Bantu people were a primitive hunter gatherer society at the time of the arrival of white colonialists.

The only step down would be to return to cave dwelling.

Just how is it possible to disadvantage such a people when they were in a position to learn and progress by immersion except they didn't and now we have a huge problem.

Those that seek to learn and improve themselves will do so regardless of their environment. Many a person in history has died as a heretic in pursuit of forbidden knowledge.

Don't tell me blacks are disadvantaged. Any time they want to join us in the modern world, all they have to do is want it and make the effort.

Dude do you have a list of these many people who died in pursuit of scientific knowledge, who were labelled heretics?

 

[Sinbad]

Dude do you have a list of these many people who died in pursuit of scientific knowledge, who were labelled heretics?

Here's one

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Galileo