The UCT - Cecil John Rhodes Statue Thread

[Nicodeamus]

I think you have no memory of that time, because nobody I've spoken to today seems to have gone through the kind of education you did.

Once again proving that bantu education is better than the current OBE education.

In any case, here is a list of most of the books that were banned during Apartheid http://www.theliteraturepolice.com/database/

obviously a complete list is impossible, most of the books were those who spoke out against the regime, sexual acts, satanic books or obvious pro communist propaganda. However we all know that the rules were difficult to enforce. My family still boasts with a little red book on the shelves.

 

[w1z4rd]

Yes, because I was never taught the history of the Zulu people in school,

Why dont you go read their long historical written record of their history? Thats how most of us know about our histories.

 

[The_Right_Honourable_Brit]

The sinister underbelly to the "Rhodes Must Fall!" campaign - DA MP

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politi.../en/page71619?oid=1022687&sn=Detail&pid=71616

One of the lesser-noted aspects of the #Rhodesmustfall campaign is the complete and cowardly retreat of liberals in the face of majoritarian demands to remove the Randlord's statue.

Cecil Rhodes himself was no liberal. He was an imperialist jingo derided by nineteenth-century liberals like Olive Schreiner. She excoriated him and his "native policy" in Trooper Peter Halket of Mashonaland on the eve of the South African War.

Indeed, Rhodes has no place in the South African liberal tradition. But, for better or worse, he is part of our collective history. He cannot be destroyed or erased from the historical record. Such erasure would in any event be a profoundly illiberal impulse.

In the circumstances, it is remarkable that UCT's senate - the academic guardians of a historically liberal institution - buckled so comprehensively in the face of student pressure to remove Rhodes's statue: by 181 votes to 1, to be precise.

This weak-kneed capitulation to majoritarianism betrayed the university's founding liberal values of tolerance, open-mindedness and respect for a plurality of views.

Of course, it could be argued, the senate was swayed by arguments so persuasive and unassailable that it had no choice but to heed the demand that #Rhodesmustfall.

Having read student leader Chumani Maxwele's interview with Chris Barron in the Sunday Times, I somehow doubt it. He told Barron, "I don't have to justify anything to a white male or a white institution. Nothing whatsoever".

The senate's recommendation to remove the statue from the campus (as opposed to juxtaposing it with another statue, or relocating it to a position of lesser prominence) represents a blanket suspension of its critical faculties. Senate's solution to the problem was destructive rather than creative. It was a wholesale surrender to bullying tactics.

In fact, it was akin to turkeys voting for Christmas.

For the dark underbelly of #Rhodesmustfall is that it is an illiberal movement, supported by progressive patsies, whose ringleaders and cheerleaders both inside and outside the academy despise liberals.

They are opposed to the idea and the institution of a liberal university.

Look at their Facebook page, listen to the so-called "debate" during which Barney Pityana was unceremoniously relieved of his chairmanship duties in a fit of illiberal intolerance, and read the material that they put out.

The genius of the #Rhodesmustfall campaign is that it has seized upon a real and legitimate issue - the fact that black South Africans are, as Aubrey Matshiqi once said, in the numerical majority but cultural minority at institutions - and grafted onto that an illiberal transformation agenda that is likely to be institutionally wholly destructive.

The campaigners share something of the outlook and the zeal of Malegapuru Makgoba. He was the vice-chancellor who "transformed" the University of Natal from a liberal institution of excellence into a nationalist centre of parochialism and mediocrity.

The driving force behind the #Rhodesmustfall campaign is an amalgam of racial nationalists, leftists, self-styled social justice activists, and politically correct ideologues who view the world (and the humanities in particular) through the narrow prism of critical race theory, "whiteness studies" and "white privilege".

For them, the whole history of humankind can be reduced to the colonial encounter between "black" and "white", "us" and "them". This inevitably gives rise to a form of identity politics based on racial mobilization.

No wonder, then, that the most vocal defenders of the campaign have been the ANC, the EFF, the SACP, Equal Education, and the likes of Gillian Schutte writing in the Sunday Independent.

Schutte seems to think that she can "abolish whiteness" by wringing her hands repeatedly, and by boring her readers to death with self-righteous, jargon-laden prose of the very worst order.

She once wrote an essay entitled "The Politics of **** and Why It Should Be Part of Public Protest", which tells you everything you need to know about her.

No matter. For this motley crew, the problems in higher education are all black and white. And "white liberals" are the cause of the problem. White liberals are the greatest legators and legatees of white privilege. Their unacknowledged privilege is, in turn, the biggest stumbling block to real "transformation" in higher education and society more broadly.

Some liberals are susceptible to this kind of argument, which is presumably why DASO-UCT felt compelled to "fully support" the removal of the statue in a press statement so mealy-mouthed and ingratiating that it could have been written by Gillian Schutte herself, replete with references to "white privilege".

The impulse is understandable. Liberals in South Africa have an imperfect history. They have been complicit in racism in the past and they are ill-served by pretending that racism does not exist in the present. And, of course, the two are related.

Younger liberals, in particular, are frustrated with the kind of liberalism that clings to a fanciful, feel-good notion of "rainbow nationhood" or colour-blindness, and which serves to obscure more than it does enlighten the structural nature of many of our social problems.

In the circumstances, appeals to "white privilege" - identifying it, "checking" it, atoning for it - carry some sway. The concept has a veneer of reasonableness, because there is a ring of truth to it.

Apartheid was an elaborate system of racial preferment and privilege for whites. It would be ludicrous to think that once apartheid ended, even twenty years after it ended, that somehow whites did not continue to enjoy certain advantages over blacks in accessing opportunities, through networks and social capital and the like.

But that is no reason for liberals to be suckered into the "white privilege" school of thought. "White privilege" is a handy rhetorical device, employed by opponents of liberalism.

It serves to legitimate the ANC's hegemonic project of "transformation", which is really just a code-word for racial domination.

Moreover, the notion of "white privilege" is based on its own set of historical blind-spots and current denials.

Anyone watching the events of the past few weeks unfold at UCT would be forgiven for forgetting that the university played an important role as a liberal institution in opposing apartheid. Among other things, it manipulated the ministerial permit system to admit black students who were denied access to whites-only universities.

The "white privilege" brigade would also have us believe that UCT is "untransformed" because obstinate white liberals are blocking the path of their black colleagues into the professoriate.

Yet, as UCT has pointed out in the past, it takes more than 20 years from obtaining a PhD to becoming a professor. So the pool of black South African academics available for appointment to professorship in 2015 depends on the pool of black PhD graduates in 1995.

There are no-quick fix solutions to increasing that pool. The long-term solution is to improve the quality of the public education system that pumps the pool 20 years down the line.

That, of course, is the government's responsibility.

The purveyors of "white privilege" aren't very much interested in addressing that, or indeed some of the more difficult questions about the current government's role in failing to bring about the transformed society envisioned by the Constitution.

It's far easier to put the blame at the liberals' door.

Yet it would be a real pity if UCT's council, following the lead of its senate, were to abandon its liberal heritage, give into populist pressure, and duck and dive the hard questions, too.

 

[Mila]

Yes, because I was never taught the history of the Zulu people in school, and neither was anyone else who grew up during apartheid.
I also never learnt the history of any of the other indigenous people, except for a few things here and there which we were taught to show us how barbaric and savage the natives were.

Thanks for proving my point

Nou lieg jy lekker / You are lying to try and make a point.
Are you trolling?

I was so gatvol of the Dingaan and Chaka I decided I hated history.
I love history. It was taught every year up until you could choose not to have history. In standard 6 they added Hitler and Stalin.


What school did you go to? or were you one of the boom smokers in the woodwork Shed?


Or did you lie to make a point? Or do you have a Zuma education?

I gave you a good number of options. So feel free to add another lie. How are we suppose to take you seriously now?

AGGG FAK , Its an april fools joke ne?

 

[FoXtroT]

Well its not like the current curriculum teachers you the history of the Zulu either, at least up until Grade 10 it doesn't. Until then, in terms of SA history you learn about the San and the Khoi, then van Riebeck arrives, skip forwards to the Land Act and then fast forwards again to 1948 where you learn about Apartheid up until the mid 80's. So much South African history is actually left out its frankly frightening.

 

[AntiGanda]

Really?
Just out of interest, how many of you were taught that blacks and whites arrived in the area we know as South Africa around the the same time? We were taught this 'fact' at school and obviously many others were too because I've seen this claim made on myBB many many times - oh there were no black people in South Africa when the whites arrived, and things like that. Well, that's an example of how apartheid distorted history.

How many of you were taught about Great Zimbabwe and Mapungubwe, about how that civilization had developed a sophisticated mining and trading culture by the 13th century, more than 400 years before Europeans arrived? Well, that's an example of how apartheid left out history.

How many of you were taught that black Africans were hunter gatherers and that Europeans brought farming and agriculture to Southern Africa. Again I've seen this claim made on myBB many many times, so clearly I wasn't the only one who received this 'education'. Well, that's an example of how apartheid distorted history.

If you are referring to the Bantu speakers, they travelled South at about the time the first Europeans came calling, and clashed with the Khoi-San. They just about wiped them out and took their wives, which was how Xhosa got it's clicks.

 

[Seriously]

you really are obtuse aren't you?

Do you honestly think that the history that was taught during apartheid was accurate and unbiased? It didn't leave anything out? It didn't idolize some and demonize others?
If you believe that then I find it hard to believe you were even alive during apartheid or you would remember that everything was strictly controlled, censored and regulated to fit in with apartheid doctrine.

Tell me about the great black leaders you learned about at school during your history lessons. Which ones?
Tell me about how you studied the great African civilizations and empires that have existed.
Were you taught about the military genius of Shaka and the social innovations he introduced?
Did you learn about the meaningful contributions made by Africa to world history?
Did you learn about the African innovations in technology, government, social structure, art, and literature?


For example...

And tell me why you call apartheid 'Apaathate'

Yep, confirmed now. The Bantustan education did not do well to educate many students unless it's the student that was not prepared to learn and do what was required.

You have not listed any worthwhile examples or names on your list below so we can go educate ourselves on the internet. So please do as I need a good laugh. You may also list any achievements in recent history and modern times since WWII if you can.

The great black leaders
The great African civilizations and empires
The military genius of Shaka and the social innovations he introduced
Did you learn about the meaningful contributions made by Africa to world history?
The African innovations in technology, government, social structure, art, and literature?

So please do!

We already know about the murderous savage and despot Shaka who destroyed other tribes and nations and his failures in life falling for cheap commodities but try and convince us otherwise.

 

[Albereth]

Really?
Just out of interest, how many of you were taught that blacks and whites arrived in the area we know as South Africa around the the same time? We were taught this 'fact' at school and obviously many others were too because I've seen this claim made on myBB many many times - oh there were no black people in South Africa when the whites arrived, and things like that. Well, that's an example of how apartheid distorted history.

How many of you were taught about Great Zimbabwe and Mapungubwe, about how that civilization had developed a sophisticated mining and trading culture by the 13th century, more than 400 years before Europeans arrived? Well, that's an example of how apartheid left out history.

How many of you were taught that black Africans were hunter gatherers and that Europeans brought farming and agriculture to Southern Africa. Again I've seen this claim made on myBB many many times, so clearly I wasn't the only one who received this 'education'. Well, that's an example of how apartheid distorted history.

Your points:

1. Jan van Riebeek brought blacks to South Africa
2. Wilbur Smith wrote that history book
3. Never heard of hunter gatherers - but rather subsistence farming.

 

[LazyLion]

Rhodes Must Fall: Students have their say

Cape Town - Last Friday, the University of Cape Town Senate passed a motion in favour of removing the controversial statue of Cecil John Rhodes currently standing on the university’s upper campus.

While the final decision on the monument’s status still requires one last sitting of a special council on April 8, there can be no denying the polarising effect the debate has had on the Cape Town institution.

Juvenile, hypocritical, uneducated, brave, necessary, overdue are but some of the adjectives used to describe the actions of a handful of students who have sparked one of the biggest transformation debates in South African education.

News24 spent some time with three of these students to find out just what is driving such an aggressive call for change from a generation "born free".

On Rhodes Must Fall...

Ntokozo Dladla, Mbali Matandela and Ishmael Mahlangu are three students involved in the occupation of UCT's administrative building during the ‘Rhodes Must Fall’ campaign.

Their respective roads to the corridors of UCT's Bremner building have not been the same, with one hailing from a private school in Pretoria, another from a rural area in Mpumalanga.

But it’s their felt experiences, they say, based on their shared skin colour, that has united them in their feelings of alienation at the university.

“We are just trying to recognise that we have a right to be at this university,” said Dladla, a 21-year-old student currently in his fourth year of an LLB (law) degree.

“The systems and the processes in place here have worked in such a way to exclude us from feeling as though we are part of this university. We feel alienated.

“The statue just dramatises those feelings. We don’t want it destroyed; we just want it removed from the campus.”

Matandela, a 21-year-old Honours student studying gender and transformation, says the issue goes much deeper than mere words on a building or a statue, but is rather a focal point for a much wider issue.

“The lectures don’t represent your history or your narrative at all,” she said.

“You don’t see yourself on the campus monuments, on the naming of the buildings. You then turn to your books which don't address you.

“Students learn from lecturers, and lecturers learn from students, and you share an experience.

“When that experience is not there, you’re almost disconnected from knowledge itself.”

On occupying Bremner...

In a move to escalate the Rhodes Must Fall campaign, which started with protests staged on the university’s upper campus, approximately 50-70 students made the decision to occupy UCT’s Bremner building on Friday March 20.

The hostile action was taken after university management "failed" to provide the students with a date on which the Rhodes statue would be removed.

They were met with criticism from many quarters, but Dladla states that the occupation has great historical significance, and wasn’t taken lightly.

So what are these learners doing all day in a building designed for administration?

“The reason this space is here is to 'conscientise' those members of the student body who don’t understand how we feel,” Dladla elaborated.

“We host screenings and discussions everyday here. These screenings concern violence, and goes into the works of [Frantz] Fanon and many others, including Thomas Sankara,” added Mahlangu.

Members of both the student body, as well as the staff at UCT, are invited to engage with the students at Bremner building on "institutional racism" by attending these screenings.

“There has been an overwhelming response. The numbers interested increase every day from people who are not involved in the movement," Matandela said.

“The biggest surprise has been from the amount of black lecturers who have supported us. We’ve received messages not just from within the university, but from all over the country.”

The trio also said the group plans to continue the occupation of the Bremner building until the special sitting of UCT's council on April 8.

On ‘neglecting their studies’...

Another accusation levelled at the protesters has been a perceived "apathy" toward their studies, in choosing to focus on protesting against a statue rather than "going to classes".

Matandela, though, had an answer for this presumption too.

“We’ve set up a boardroom where we can do our work,” explained Matandela.

“People come in and work around their own timetables. It actually hasn’t been a problem.”

Along with this special boardroom used for homework, a meeting room has been co-opted out of one of the building’s seminar rooms.

Here, coffee and tea line the walls of the room, while projectors display footage of black African history on a loop, for those wanting to attend the seminars aimed at engagement.

It is in this meeting room that the students meet every morning to discuss the relevant issues of the day, provide feedback, and to assign tasks.

“Within this movement we’ve organised ourselves into sub-committees that are dedicated to various aspects of the movement, and there’s someone to organise the day’s schedule and the day’s programme,” explained Matandela.

“So for instance we have the artistic expression committee. They are predominantly our art students, and three days in a row now they’ve had various protests on upper campus that are profound and powerful.”

“[And] the decisions we make, we make altogether. Every decision is made together. It is transparent that way,” added Mahlangu.

On Rhodes scholarships and bursaries…

Arguably the most controversial accusation levelled at some of the protesting students has been their eagerness to protest against the Rhodes name despite the many bursaries now afforded to black African students from the Rhodes educational grant.

Mahlangu took a philosophical approach to the issue. “I think the same can be said about the question 'why are we fighting UCT when we are at UCT?'

“You can’t silence us from speaking on injustice just because, let’s say, I’m on a Rhodes scholarship. It’s still wrong.

“Perhaps I became more conscious of this problem only after I accepted it, or maybe I was in a desperate position and I had to take the scholarship at the time.

“But if I think it [the continued presence of the statue on the campus] is an injustice, then I am going to speak out about it.”

The University of Cape Town’s special council is due to make its final decision regarding the status of the Cecil John Rhodes statue on April 8. If passed, it will then require approval from Heritage Western Cape.

Paul Herman, News24
Source: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Rhodes-Must-Fall-Students-have-their-say-20150402

 

[Albereth]

You can’t silence us from speaking on injustice just because, let’s say, I’m on a Rhodes scholarship. It’s still wrong.

What a muppet. Being a Rhodes scholar gives you a label. Actually a well respected label.

To me, the greatest fools in the world are those who cut off their noses to spite their faces.

 

[Solarion]

Rhodes Must Fall: Students have their say

What utter garbage. Still grabbing for that pie in the sky I see.

 

[etienne_marais]

oh there were no black people in South Africa when the whites arrived

There may be some ignorami that belief this, but that is not due to the Apartheid curriculum.
The commonly held view is that there were Khoisan people to the South since before whites arrived and that the Vryburghers who established themselves on the Cape East border first had contact with southward moving black (Bantu) tribes since just before the Great Trek. It has however been suggested that there were cyclic movements of Bantu tribes implying that they were doing their routine for longer than was previously thought, but this was not known during the early Apartheid years and not audaciously left out of the curriculum.

 

[w1z4rd]

Another racist attack on another cultures heritage. This one in Uitenhage

 

[Spizz]

It feels like the country is going to go up in smoke soon. It just seems so easy to whip up the masses with some conjured smoke and mirrors hiding the 'real' issues (such as employment, poverty, corruption and housing) that it would almost be negligent of the government not to stir the race pot.

 

[ellyally]

Another racist attack on another cultures heritage. This one in Uitenhage

Any excuse to burn stuff... perhaps if they weren't so eager to light a fire over the years, some of the schools and libraries would have been standing to educate em.

 

[Mila]

This is the problem with people with the IQ of a bag of hair, they follow like sheep their equally brain dead leaders.

How farking original.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Imagine an Ndebele lighting up a Shaka statue...

 

[MickeyD]

Another racist attack on another cultures heritage. This one in Uitenhage

That's the Anglo-Boer War statue... do they even realize the importance thereof?

 

[etienne_marais]

That's the Anglo-Boer War statue... do they even realize the importance thereof?

Doubt it.

 

[ellyally]

Imagine an Ndebele lighting up a Shaka statue...

Shaka is an apartheid hero... he slaughtered millions of black people, more than any white man in history. It MUST stay