Sign up with Google
dualmeister
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2005
- Messages
- 51,598
So you are comparing Cecil John Rhodes to Hitler then? :erm:
-
Ask a question and get free supportUnlock new privileges and see hidden discussionsWin prizes and earn reputation
-
Question of the day ~ Do you queue to fill up your car before the fuel price increase every month?
-
Afristay giveaway.Win a 2-night stay for two people at an establishment of your choice with R1,000 in spending money. Enter here.
The UCT - Cecil John Rhodes Statue Thread
- Thread starter The_Right_Honourable_Brit
- Start date
Well, we erected Shaka... and he's closest thing africa has to Hitler... tolerance
Again you are missing the point. I said CRJ and his views have lost relevance which is why his statue, images and the ideas that he stood for have to be removed from our public spaces. I hope you grasp it this time.
dualmeister
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2005
- Messages
- 51,598
So kind of like the Bible then (some would say).
Last edited:
Of course they are a significant portion. If they were insignificant this issue wouldn't be public discourse. CJR described blacks as "barbarians" in his attempts to justify a cruel and oppressive stance on blacks, so again you are wrong.
Ah, like Shaka then
Did I? lol. I am not sure if you being deliberately obtuse of not. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Niether does the views of Shaka Zulu who basically tried to obliterate other local tribes. That alone is not an excuse. If you are going to remove statues and monuments on this basis, then you will not have any history at all, because the history of all people's nations contains some bad sh***t. Its not just Europeans who went about conquering other people. You need to get off your high horse
If we kept erasing it, we would never be reminded of what happened and the who's and why's of it.
Instead of tearing down history, however badly it went for you at the time, focus on building your own. Ensure that statues, like those of Rhodes, are placed in context. Put a statue of Mandela next to Rhodes. Make it grander. They both signify a journey and illustrate the sacrifices made in building a nation. Tearing down your history, erodes the foundation and cheapens the sacrifice made by those who died for this country in the struggle against apartheid.
dualmeister
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2005
- Messages
- 51,598
I could not get into UCT. My white privilege has failed me.
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2006
- Messages
- 113,636
They are NOT a significant portion, they are just being loud.
Crowley
Executive Member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Messages
- 7,716
If CJR could send a message now, would his view have changed after seeing the protesters throw feces on his statue?
Niether does the views of Shaka Zulu who basically tried to obliterate other local tribes. That alone is not an excuse. If you are going to remove statues and monuments on this basis, then you will not have any history at all, because the history of all people's nations contains some bad sh***t. Its not just Europeans who went about conquering other people. You need to get off your high horse
If we kept erasing it, we would never be reminded of what happened and the who's and why's of it.
Instead of tearing down history, however badly it went for you at the time, focus on building your own. Ensure that statues, like those of Rhodes, are placed in context. Put a statue of Mandela next to Rhodes. Make it grander. They both signify a journey and illustrate the sacrifices made in building a nation. Tearing down your history, erodes the foundation and cheapens the sacrifice made by those who died for this country in the struggle against apartheid.
A whole lot of words but so much nothingness. Which Shaka's views are you referring to? Removing a statue is NOT "erasing" history. We are simply choosing not to honour those that where responsible for the oppression of blacks. Hardly complicated, is it? The history itself is still there - recorded in books.
Well, they are significant enough to be heard.
I don't know, and I am not even sure I care.
Sinbad
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2006
- Messages
- 81,193
No, the fact that they defaced a statue with faeces is what made them heard. Not their significance.
I don't know, and I am not even sure I care.
Shaka oppressed and murdered more black people than any other person in history. The white man over centuries hasn't done even a fraction of what he did in his short reign. Yet you 'honour' him.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 105,605
Statues, names, inconsistencies and life's uncertainties
Opinion piece by Gerhard Papenfus - CE of NEASA
More than a century after his death, Cecil John Rhodes finds 'himself' in a crate, with a plastic bag wrapped around his face. He is, of course, not at all bothered by this.
This whole saga reminds me of the fact that I may also still have a few bones to pick with Mr Rhodes for what he, directly or indirectly, did to my ancestors a hundred-and-fourteen years ago. I chose not to spend any energy on this though; it will not change anything. I am, however, concerned about the underlying attitudes behind the demand to take down his statue.
Destroying that which was established by those before you is an age old type of behaviour by 'conquerors'; first drive out the enemy, then destroy what has been established - good or bad. This behaviour is nothing but a misguided form of celebration and revenge. The Mongols, the Greeks, the Romans - they all did this. The Taliban in Afghanistan and ISIS in Iraq and Syria are no different. Now this is also taking place in South Africa, however, surreptitiously and under other pretences.
In certain cases these destructive conquerors eventually succeed in becoming prospering nations; unfortunately, most do not manage to do that, in which case the societies involved remain ruined forever and their countries become areas of desolation. Therefore, before you destroy, make sure that you have the ability to rebuild.
So, after Cecil John Rhodes' statue has been removed, followed by the statues of perhaps King George V at the University of Kwazulu-Natal, Queen Victoria at Parliament, and then Paul Kruger in Church Square in Pretoria, and more; and perhaps after convincing Mugabe to remove David Livingstone's statue from Victoria Falls and to exhume Rhodes' bones from his grave on Malindidzimu (the hill where he would stand in wonder of the landscape in front of him and made reference to the "... peacefulness of it all; the chaotic grandeur of it; it creates a feeling of awe and brings home to one how very small we are"), and after every street and school has been renamed and the history books have been rewritten - then what?
Why only remove Rhodes' statue? Why still make use of the buildings on campus and the scholarships? Why accept anything from Rhodes? Why not make the sacrifices where it matters, where it is felt personally? Why only remove the symbols?
After the victor's euphoria of proving a point and settling a score has worn off, what happens then? Will that be enough? Will the focus then shift to reconciliation, nation building, education and overall service delivery? Will we then create jobs, address poverty, grow the economy? I don't think so. The spirit of revenge does not carry in itself the ability to build; only to destroy.
A vengeful spirit has an endless appetite for creating new issues; it won't be satisfied with only the removal of a statue. Unless there is a supernatural change of heart, a bad attitude (originating from self-pity, bitterness, revenge, not taking personal responsibility, blaming others, living a life in the rear-view mirror) can never be satisfied; it will always end in disaster.
History is unpredictable; it also has a strange way of repeating itself. Empires and kingdoms come and go; even civilisations cease to exist. Statues are erected and then, sooner or later, demolished. Can it be that, one day, the statue of the late President Nelson Mandela and that of Walter and Albertina Sisulu will be taken down for their policies of non-racialism and conciliation? Street names will be changed again; and again; and again. This is all so pointless.
No one is perfect. There is so much bad in the best of us; there is so much good in the worst of us. Cecil John Rhodes was just another imperfect human being. His sin, I assume, was that he was an 'imperialist, an oppressor and a racist', bringing with it all kinds of evils. But was 'racist' then worse than 'racist' now, or being a 'nationalist' - of the pre or the post '94 type? Why is the current pilfering of our resources and taxes different from Rhodes' imperialism? It was inspired by greed then, it is inspired by greed now; the way it plays out can never be pretty.
We bring down his statue for his 'wrongs', whilst at the same time enjoying that which he got 'right' and tolerate exactly the same evils in our society. We are blind to this, pathetically exposed in our hopelessness, our inability to carve out a new future. So let's blame Rhodes; that will make us feel better, if only for a while. Then we will have to find new culprits; new excuses. This is all so unproductive and self-defeating.
Why do we refuse to learn from our past? The more we try to deny, twist and hide the past, the more we repeat it. We make the mistake by thinking that humans with different skin colours are inclined to make mistakes of a different kind. In the meantime, we are exactly the same. Given the opportunity, left to our own vices, we make ourselves guilty of the same sins. So, if we do not learn from our past (from people like Rhodes), we will repeat those evils. Yes, we are making exactly the same mistakes as the ones we try to demonise. Humans are humans; skin colour does not determine the content of the heart.
Let's be frank; our nation faces severe challenges. Those who choose the path of destruction currently drive the agenda, or at least so it appears on the surface. Fortunately, despite all of this, there are those who are constructively working towards change, and there are the millions of South Africans who face their responsibilities every day; focussing on what is right: serving those around them, raising their children, caring for their families (and extended families), often with extremely limited means, building a future. I see them walking, often running, to work, some fortunate to drive to work - whilst it is still pitch dark. This happens throughout South Africa - every day!
These are the true heroes of South Africa. Statues will never be built in their honour, streets will not be named after them. Strangely enough, they are also not demanding the demolishing of the existing ones. It is when you walk amongst these South Africans, seeing how they are cheerfully going about their business, that you are inspired.
Out of the current negativity a new vision can, of course, be born; a vision which might inspire all South Africans, to build a nation on lasting values. This is the challenge we are facing.
http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=7af202f977bc5dbad675398d7&id=8a02a73e05&e=d27febd55a
Opinion piece by Gerhard Papenfus - CE of NEASA
More than a century after his death, Cecil John Rhodes finds 'himself' in a crate, with a plastic bag wrapped around his face. He is, of course, not at all bothered by this.
This whole saga reminds me of the fact that I may also still have a few bones to pick with Mr Rhodes for what he, directly or indirectly, did to my ancestors a hundred-and-fourteen years ago. I chose not to spend any energy on this though; it will not change anything. I am, however, concerned about the underlying attitudes behind the demand to take down his statue.
Destroying that which was established by those before you is an age old type of behaviour by 'conquerors'; first drive out the enemy, then destroy what has been established - good or bad. This behaviour is nothing but a misguided form of celebration and revenge. The Mongols, the Greeks, the Romans - they all did this. The Taliban in Afghanistan and ISIS in Iraq and Syria are no different. Now this is also taking place in South Africa, however, surreptitiously and under other pretences.
In certain cases these destructive conquerors eventually succeed in becoming prospering nations; unfortunately, most do not manage to do that, in which case the societies involved remain ruined forever and their countries become areas of desolation. Therefore, before you destroy, make sure that you have the ability to rebuild.
So, after Cecil John Rhodes' statue has been removed, followed by the statues of perhaps King George V at the University of Kwazulu-Natal, Queen Victoria at Parliament, and then Paul Kruger in Church Square in Pretoria, and more; and perhaps after convincing Mugabe to remove David Livingstone's statue from Victoria Falls and to exhume Rhodes' bones from his grave on Malindidzimu (the hill where he would stand in wonder of the landscape in front of him and made reference to the "... peacefulness of it all; the chaotic grandeur of it; it creates a feeling of awe and brings home to one how very small we are"), and after every street and school has been renamed and the history books have been rewritten - then what?
Why only remove Rhodes' statue? Why still make use of the buildings on campus and the scholarships? Why accept anything from Rhodes? Why not make the sacrifices where it matters, where it is felt personally? Why only remove the symbols?
After the victor's euphoria of proving a point and settling a score has worn off, what happens then? Will that be enough? Will the focus then shift to reconciliation, nation building, education and overall service delivery? Will we then create jobs, address poverty, grow the economy? I don't think so. The spirit of revenge does not carry in itself the ability to build; only to destroy.
A vengeful spirit has an endless appetite for creating new issues; it won't be satisfied with only the removal of a statue. Unless there is a supernatural change of heart, a bad attitude (originating from self-pity, bitterness, revenge, not taking personal responsibility, blaming others, living a life in the rear-view mirror) can never be satisfied; it will always end in disaster.
History is unpredictable; it also has a strange way of repeating itself. Empires and kingdoms come and go; even civilisations cease to exist. Statues are erected and then, sooner or later, demolished. Can it be that, one day, the statue of the late President Nelson Mandela and that of Walter and Albertina Sisulu will be taken down for their policies of non-racialism and conciliation? Street names will be changed again; and again; and again. This is all so pointless.
No one is perfect. There is so much bad in the best of us; there is so much good in the worst of us. Cecil John Rhodes was just another imperfect human being. His sin, I assume, was that he was an 'imperialist, an oppressor and a racist', bringing with it all kinds of evils. But was 'racist' then worse than 'racist' now, or being a 'nationalist' - of the pre or the post '94 type? Why is the current pilfering of our resources and taxes different from Rhodes' imperialism? It was inspired by greed then, it is inspired by greed now; the way it plays out can never be pretty.
We bring down his statue for his 'wrongs', whilst at the same time enjoying that which he got 'right' and tolerate exactly the same evils in our society. We are blind to this, pathetically exposed in our hopelessness, our inability to carve out a new future. So let's blame Rhodes; that will make us feel better, if only for a while. Then we will have to find new culprits; new excuses. This is all so unproductive and self-defeating.
Why do we refuse to learn from our past? The more we try to deny, twist and hide the past, the more we repeat it. We make the mistake by thinking that humans with different skin colours are inclined to make mistakes of a different kind. In the meantime, we are exactly the same. Given the opportunity, left to our own vices, we make ourselves guilty of the same sins. So, if we do not learn from our past (from people like Rhodes), we will repeat those evils. Yes, we are making exactly the same mistakes as the ones we try to demonise. Humans are humans; skin colour does not determine the content of the heart.
Let's be frank; our nation faces severe challenges. Those who choose the path of destruction currently drive the agenda, or at least so it appears on the surface. Fortunately, despite all of this, there are those who are constructively working towards change, and there are the millions of South Africans who face their responsibilities every day; focussing on what is right: serving those around them, raising their children, caring for their families (and extended families), often with extremely limited means, building a future. I see them walking, often running, to work, some fortunate to drive to work - whilst it is still pitch dark. This happens throughout South Africa - every day!
These are the true heroes of South Africa. Statues will never be built in their honour, streets will not be named after them. Strangely enough, they are also not demanding the demolishing of the existing ones. It is when you walk amongst these South Africans, seeing how they are cheerfully going about their business, that you are inspired.
Out of the current negativity a new vision can, of course, be born; a vision which might inspire all South Africans, to build a nation on lasting values. This is the challenge we are facing.
http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=7af202f977bc5dbad675398d7&id=8a02a73e05&e=d27febd55a
Flanders
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2003
- Messages
- 14,742
My prediction is this:
The pro statue removal types on this board (^) will disappear into the shadows WHEN (not 'if') this continues and the justifications run a little thin. Of course this could continue for a while - but, but, apartheid, colonialism etc. etc. but ultimately when things go too far they will become deathly silent as fscking usual.
The pro statue removal types on this board (^) will disappear into the shadows WHEN (not 'if') this continues and the justifications run a little thin. Of course this could continue for a while - but, but, apartheid, colonialism etc. etc. but ultimately when things go too far they will become deathly silent as fscking usual.
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2010
- Messages
- 55,192
All I know is that the atmosphere at UCT will suck…