They’re Lying about Louis C.K

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
How is including sexual favours in a work contract prostitution? Surely a prostitute sleeps with multiple partners - and is exclusively paid for that particular service.
It's payment for sex or a sexual favour, which as Jimmy says, is illegal.
 

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
34,087
Are you forgetting, that in every instance, he requested permission first? I'm not overlooking the fact that he had perceived power in these situations, but as has been suggested, and I agree with, it was a transactional choice.
Okay whoa... so firstly, Louis CK isn't Bill Cosby, we all know that. He got some kind of consent and what he did was really gross but it wasn't criminal. On the other hand, to suggest that it was also totally consensual is also false. He had an enormous career leverage over these women, and do you really think it's acceptable to expect women to trade career advantage for subjecting themselves to sexual behavior that they never wanted? That's just about the definition of workplace sexual harassment. It's not acceptable in an office - Louis CK would have been fired out of any job for what he did - so why is it okay in comedy?

I can even imagine scenarios where like... it's gross but it's not that bad. If the women were like, sure whatever it's for my career, or just plainly didn't mind (like Sarah Silverman), then it's fine. But they weren't really okay, and he just went on anyway, and their careers were damaged when they tried to speak up about it.
 

JimmyRott

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,054
How is including sexual favours in a work contract prostitution? Surely a prostitute sleeps with multiple partners - and is exclusively paid for that particular service.
I would think that prostitution is purely defined as performing sexual acts for remuneration. I may be wrong. I think it's completely stupid that it's illegal in the first place, but it still seems to me like it would be under the current laws.

Otherwise, what would prevent prostitutes from just carrying temporary employment contracts that last an hour and go about their business?
 

KT-B

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
19,956
It's payment for sex or a sexual favour, which as Jimmy says, is illegal.
Actually nope - it is payment for work - which includes sexual favours. It is not exclusively for sex. She is a secretary and would be paid for the usual secretarial functions. It would be difficult to work out how much of her salary would be due to her sexual duties.

I am possibly wrong - but this would be my argument.
 

JimmyRott

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,054
Actually nope - it is payment for work - which includes sexual favours. It is not exclusively for sex. She is a secretary and would be paid for the usual secretarial functions. It would be difficult to work out how much of her salary would be due to her sexual duties.

I am possibly wrong - but this would be my argument.
I see where you are coming from but think you are wrong nonetheless. The fact that any of her salary is due to sexual duties is the problem....
 

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
Okay whoa... so firstly, Louis CK isn't Bill Cosby, we all know that. He got some kind of consent and what he did was really gross but it wasn't criminal. On the other hand, to suggest that it was also totally consensual is also false. He had an enormous career leverage over these women, and do you really think it's acceptable to expect women to trade career advantage for subjecting themselves to sexual behavior that they never wanted? That's just about the definition of workplace sexual harassment. It's not acceptable in an office - Louis CK would have been fired out of any job for what he did - so why is it okay in comedy?

I can even imagine scenarios where like... it's gross but it's not that bad. If the women were like, sure whatever it's for my career, or just plainly didn't mind (like Sarah Silverman), then it's fine. But they weren't really okay, and he just went on anyway, and their careers were damaged when they tried to speak up about it.
Re-read what you just typed. This is all perception, not fact. You are assuming that he had massive leverage over their careers, I disagree. You then go on to say "expect women to trade career advantage for subjecting themselves to sexual behavior that they never wanted?" - so, as I said, they acted (or, neglected to) out of the hope of furthering themselves in some way, and not in fear of having something taken away. They're pretty much expecting payment from enduring this, then?

To re-iterate, I do not condone actual abuse of power (a CEO telling his secretary that she'll never get a raise if she doesn't do something for him would be a case of this), but I think you're assuming far too much in this instance.

" But they weren't really okay, and he just went on anyway" I'd like to know how he would've known at the time that they were not okay? Did they say no? Did they tell him to stop? I am genuinely asking for actual facts here. If this is the case, then yes, he's despicable. If not, and they sat there silent while he j3rk3d off, then how was he to know?
 

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
I see where you are coming from but think you are wrong nonetheless. The fact that any of her salary is due to sexual duties is the problem....
I tend to agree here, sadly. "Sadly", only because adults should be able to make their own mutually consensual arrangements if they see fit.
 

Eniigma

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,492
Sure I never denied that. So how many of your co workers or bosses have asked for your permission to w ank off in front of you?

We try to normalise his behaviour by saying people are weird and like different things but how many times have you encountered a "normal" person like this. I believe we are giving him the benefit of the doubt because he is Louis CK
Lol if that happened, there would be some abuse so sure, but it would be me being abused. If anyone asked if they could jack off in front of me, they'd meet my fist, regardless of their "power over me".

The problem is that they may well have felt pressured into agreeing due to his prominence in the industry and possible negative effects it could have on their career? Do you think that bosses should be able to make these kind of requests of their secretaries? Why is this any different? It would be entirely different if he was asking to do this with people of similar stature and power in the industry as him but the fact that he didn't makes me think he knew the dynamics and that these woman might be resistant to go against his wishes.
Pressured =! Forced. You can be pressured to do something but still say no. If you give in to that pressure, thats on you. Forced is a whole other story. If a secretary was asked to do that, and said no and suffered as a result... he/she has a lot of legal recourse to take.
 

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
34,087
Re-read what you just typed. This is all perception, not fact. You are assuming that he had massive leverage over their careers, I disagree.

You then go on to say "expect women to trade career advantage for subjecting themselves to sexual behavior that they never wanted?" - so, as I said, they acted (or, neglected to) out of the hope of furthering themselves in some way, and not in fear of having something taken away. They're pretty much expecting payment from enduring this, then?

To re-iterate, I do not condone actual abuse of power (a CEO telling his secretary that she'll never get a raise if she doesn't do something for him would be a case of this), but I think you're assuming far too much in this instance.

" But they weren't really okay, and he just went on anyway" I'd like to know how he would've known at the time that they were not okay? Did they say no? Did they tell him to stop? I am genuinely asking for actual facts here. If this is the case, then yes, he's despicable. If not, and they sat there silent while he j3rk3d off, then how was he to know?
Okay so here are some of the actual accounts:
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/11/9/16629400/louis-ck-allegations-masturbation

At the Aspen Comedy Festival a few years ago, he invited a female comedy duo back to his hotel room. The two ladies gladly joined him, and offered him some weed. He turned it down, but asked if it would be OK if he took his dick out.

Thinking he was joking (that's exactly the kind of thing this guy would say), the women gave a facetious thumbs up. He wasn't joking. When he actually started jerking off in front of them, the ladies decided that wasn't their bag and made for the exit. But the comedian stood in front of the door, blocking their way with his body, until he was done.
And this guy didn’t rape me, but he made a certain difficult decision to go on tour with him really hard. Because I knew if I did, I’d be getting more of the same weird treatment I’d been getting from him. And it was really ****ed up, and this person was married. So it was not good, and so I hold a lot of resentment.
“It was something that I knew was wrong,” said the woman, who described sitting in Louis C.K.’s office while he masturbated in his desk chair during a workday, other colleagues just outside the door. “I think the big piece of why I said yes was because of the culture,” she continued. “He abused his power.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

“He leaned close to my face and said, ‘Can I ask you something?’ I said, ‘Yes,’” Ms. Corry said in a written statement to The New York Times. “He asked if we could go to my dressing room so he could masturbate in front of me.” Stunned and angry, Ms. Corry said she declined, and pointed out that he had a daughter and a pregnant wife. “His face got red,” she recalled, “and he told me he had issues.”
She said she heard the blinds coming down. Then he slowly started telling her his sexual fantasies, breathing heavily and talking softly. She realized he was masturbating, and was dumbfounded. The call went on for several minutes, even though, Ms. Schachner said, “I definitely wasn’t encouraging it.” But she didn’t know how to end it, either. “You want to believe it’s not happening,” she said.
And when some of them did speak out...

Soon after, they said they understood from their managers that Mr. Becky, Louis C.K’s manager, wanted them to stop telling people about their encounter with Louis C.K. Lee Kernis, one of the women’s managers at the time, confirmed on Thursday that he had a conversation in which he told Mr. Becky that Louis C.K.’s behavior toward the women had been offensive. Mr. Kernis also said that Mr. Becky was upset that the women were talking openly about the incident.

Mr. Becky arguably wields even more power in comedy than Louis C.K. He represents Kevin Hart, Aziz Ansari, Amy Poehler and other top performers, and his company, 3 Arts, puts together programming deals for nearly every platform.

Ms. Goodman and Ms. Wolov moved to Los Angeles shortly after the Aspen festival, but “we were coming here with a bunch of enemies,” Ms. Goodman said. Gren Wells, a filmmaker who befriended the comedy duo in 2002, said the incident and the warning, which they told her about soon after Aspen, hung heavily over them both. “This is something that they were freaked out about,” Ms. Wells said.
So yeah.. people painting this as some kind of harmless quid pro quo arrangement where a bunch of career-hungry women agreed to let Louis CK behave how he wanted are just being dishonest. He clearly abused the power he had over women, and did things that were only barely over the line of consent.
 

Zoomzoom

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Messages
3,571
Some guys do - even without taking you on a date. You should see the requests people send over social media. You can be offended by it, find it funny, go along with it - whatever the lady chooses is her choice. There are guys that go from 0 to 120 in 3,5 seconds. You, clearly, have better/different standards.
exactly why the flying f-ck is it solely MY responsibility for how other people act? Guys who does this feel ENTITLED and that ENTITLEMENT is the problem NOT my reaction to it! However I choose to act in response does not in the slightest mitigate their act.
 

KT-B

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
19,956
Okay so here are some of the actual accounts:
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/11/9/16629400/louis-ck-allegations-masturbation


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

And when some of them did speak out...

So yeah.. people painting this as some kind of harmless quid pro quo arrangement where a bunch of career-hungry women agreed to let Louis CK behave how he wanted are just being dishonest. He clearly abused the power he had over women, and did things that were only barely over the line of consent.
After reading this - he was completely wrong and off base!!! These women clearly were not given a choice. He is a dirty old man!
 

Nick333

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
30,812
exactly why the flying f-ck is it solely MY responsibility for how other people act? Guys who does this feel ENTITLED and that ENTITLEMENT is the problem NOT my reaction to it! However I choose to act in response does not in the slightest mitigate their act.
Your perspective is so out of whack with reality its not even funny anymore. Beggars have a sense of entitlement, but I don't demand that people stop begging. I just ignore them or tell them to fcck off if they make a nuisance of themselves. I have no ffcking idea how beggars asking or demanding something from me makes their behaviour my responsibility though.

The fact is everyone has the right to ask or even demand that they be given whatever they want. It may be obnoxious; it may be out of a sense of entitlement, but all anyone can do about it is say no.
 

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
Okay so here are some of the actual accounts:
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/11/9/16629400/louis-ck-allegations-masturbation







https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html





And when some of them did speak out...



So yeah.. people painting this as some kind of harmless quid pro quo arrangement where a bunch of career-hungry women agreed to let Louis CK behave how he wanted are just being dishonest. He clearly abused the power he had over women, and did things that were only barely over the line of consent.
Thanks for that, I've read it before and was aware, but I tend to focus on this line "“At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true,” C.K. wrote. "

Having said that, I conveniently forgot about this:
"But the comedian stood in front of the door, blocking their way with his body, until he was done. "

That is most definitely not okay.

I'm still not completely in the camp of straight up calling this sexual harassment, and believe most of these situations could easily have been stopped had any one of them forcibly and emphatically refused. That blocking a door bit though freaks me out.
 

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
After reading this - he was completely wrong and off base!!! These women clearly were not given a choice. He is a dirty old man!
I still read this entirely differently, barring the blocking the door incident. Agree to disagree, I guess. As you said, perception - mine is clouded by the fact that I am not easily threatened and have no problem saying no if I am uncomfortable, so that probably plays a very large part in my view.
 

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
34,087
I still read this entirely differently, barring the blocking the door incident. Agree to disagree, I guess. As you said, perception - mine is clouded by the fact that I am not easily threatened and have no problem saying no if I am uncomfortable, so that probably plays a very large part in my view.
Regardless of how you feel, it is straight up sexual harassment. Even in the cases of the women who did say no and he backed off - how disgusting it must be to be propositioned in that way by someone you took as a respected colleague. Why should anyone be subjected to that at work?

What would happen at your company if the CEO asked a female worker if she would let him masturbate in front of her, just out of the blue and unsolicited? Even assuming she said yes at the time but she was not comfortable, her entire experience in that environment has been tainted by what she went through. I would guess that the vast majority of women would not want to see something like that.

And then to make it worse he went after the women who did speak up and intentionally railroaded their careers. Come on - there's really no way to defend his actions here. Louis CK was at the peak of comedy at the time and he did have the power to make or break careers. What he did was predatory and sick.
 

KT-B

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
19,956
I still read this entirely differently, barring the blocking the door incident. Agree to disagree, I guess. As you said, perception - mine is clouded by the fact that I am not easily threatened and have no problem saying no if I am uncomfortable, so that probably plays a very large part in my view.
Neither am I - but I know many other women are. And if I was one of them - it would have been rather shocking. Perhaps so shocking that I didn't act when I felt I should. I once (when I was a lot younger) had a man expose himself to me in the street. I just stood there, staring. I was totally dumbfounded. He covered up and walked away and I just stood there. My mind was a whirl about the things I should have said and done - but all I did was stare. So I can believe that these women appeared not to mind while being totally conflicted inside. I have been exposed to a lot more since then, so now such an incident would possibly not affect me the way it did. But not everyone has the same experiences.
 

PoppieChoffel

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,043
Regardless of how you feel, it is straight up sexual harassment. Even in the cases of the women who did say no and he backed off - how disgusting it must be to be propositioned in that way by someone you took as a respected colleague. Why should anyone be subjected to that at work?

What would happen at your company if the CEO asked a female worker if she would let him masturbate in front of her, just out of the blue and unsolicited? Even assuming she said yes at the time but she was not comfortable, her entire experience in that environment has been tainted by what she went through. I would guess that the vast majority of women would not want to see something like that.

And then to make it worse he went after the women who did speak up and intentionally railroaded their careers. Come on - there's really no way to defend his actions here. Louis CK was at the peak of comedy at the time and he did have the power to make or break careers. What he did was predatory and sick.
I should have read up more on it - thanks for sharing the info; I legitimately got as far as "he asked if it was okay". Makes me a sad panda indeed. Railroading careers as revenge for speaking out and not listening when somebody says no is just outright wrong. If the accounts are factual, he deserved the backlash he got.

As an aside - I don't have an issue that the proposition / request was made, it is how it was handled if rejected and when spoken about after the fact. I don't see the CEO scenario and a comedian's as the same, purely because of who is controlling the remuneration. Flawed perception, I'm sure, but its mine.
 
Top