They’re Lying about Louis C.K

KT-B

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Why would you wan't special treatment as a woman? You think woman don't stare either?

Their are plenty of videos on youtube of woman staring at mens bulges, alerting their friends next to them, pointing & laughing, whipping out their phones to take pictures etc.

What happened to the whole equality thing? Why is it that when a guy leers at a womens body on tv and gets busted there's social outrage but when a bunch of woman literally run their hands over a guys body it's all smiles and laughs in the name of good fun with zero outrage? It happens every day and not just on tv. I've been on the receiving end before & it's not an issue.

People even treat their male & female children differently. When you treat someone differently based on their sex then that is sexism.

Sexism is mostly something owned by women, they get away with stuff men would be crucified for.
Okay you are jumping in here and taking this post in isolation - it is part of a series. This was to illustrate one tiny point. I am not saying the same doesn't apply to men. But I am seriously done with this point now lol. Feel free to take it up with someone else.
 
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You say that his feelings aren't more important - yet the only one that has to change is the woman. She has to dress differently. She has to leave if she feels uncomfortable. She has to accept that she is an object to be stared at. She has to accept that this is what men do, that it is not going to change. IE how she feels doesn't actually count for anything. Thanks - you cleared that up nicely.
No, she does not have to "change". The point is that not ALL gazes are predatory. Majority of them are completely benign and if the alarm is triggering for more than just a few... then perhaps the alarm is set a little to sensitively.

This is where the reality bit comes in. It doesn't care how you feel. If your path has crossed that of a predator, there is not a single right or law that is going to save you.
Is it illegal to stare at a woman for more than 2 microseconds? Yes? Does the predator care? No.

See my point here?

She has to accept that not all men are predators. That undressing her with their eyeballs is not a thing the majority of men do.
 
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SWivel in my direction is not the kind of staring I was referring to. That sort of staring/looking can sometimes be flattering or confidence boosting. I was talking about the slightly more creepier version of staring for extended periods. But you are right - she can leave or turn her back to him. It was really in response to a comment that said a woman had no right to feel uncomfortable. But that was a long time back now.
Fair enough. But I wouldn't call what you're talking about "male gaze".
 
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harassment.

But much has been made of the VICTIM'S personal responsibility in all this, and never the perpetrator, somehow these actions are started by, perpetuated by, and carried out by the victim upon themselves and for which they bear full and absolute responsibility. Never of course should a hair of blame be laid at the door of the person who was never taught right from wrong, or how to act respectfully towards others.
The VICTIMS! That were looked at! Oh the horror! We should start a crowd funding campaign....
 

Nick333

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You say that his feelings aren't more important - yet the only one that has to change is the woman. She has to dress differently. She has to leave if she feels uncomfortable. She has to accept that she is an object to be stared at. She has to accept that this is what men do, that it is not going to change. IE how she feels doesn't actually count for anything. Thanks - you cleared that up nicely.
Ag, you know what KT, I actually don't know who the fcck you're going to get to make creepy men stop looking at attractive women. I guess it'll have to be the police. I really don't know what the appropriate sentence should be either, the courts can consult you and zoomzoom. Until then if I see a beautiful woman - I'm going to look at her. If I see a nice ass - I'm going to look, especially if it's in a mini skirt or tight pair of jeans. If I see a nice pair of tits - ima lookin, especially if they're in one of those tiny t's. If I see a sexy woman on a dance floor I'm watching her, because if it's on public display that's my right. I might even wonder what she looks like naked, or think about fccking her, because there is nothing you can do to stop me thinking what I think. Men are stimulated visually and that's never going to change. I'm not willing to play pretend that women don't feel attractive and sexy when how they look is appealing to the male gaze. I don't accept that women can get to feel attractive and sexy while demanding that the eyes that attractiveness is designed for by nature avert themselves. Until you can criminalise me for being male, wear a hijab or grow the fcck up, because I'm sick of dealing with emotional toddlers who think I must subjugate who and what I am for their feelings.

It's a little power trip you guys are on. Teenage girl shyt. "I'm going to show off what I've got because I like the way it feels, but if some man dares look, I'm going to cry and play the victim, because some guys are rapists".
 

Temujin

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"I'm going to show off what I've got because I like the way it feels, but if some man dares look, I'm going to cry and play the victim, because some guys are rapists".
For what I've see in the world, its a little deeper than that... its, 'if some man I don't find cute or handsome dares look at me'... They have no problem with their subjective preferred 'mates' looking, those gets smiles and eye flutters etc in return, its those they aren't attracted to that they don't want looking and have a problem with... those are the 'pigs'. /shrug
 

access

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Alright, so you don't get threatened. Imagine, if you will, your wife/girlfriend/daughter goes to a concert/club with friends. While she is there she notices a man who can't seem to take his eyes off her chest or her upper thighs. She moves so that she is out of his sight, and he moves with her so that he can keep watching her. He does this several times, making sure to never lose sight of her for long. She goes to the bathroom and comes out to find him standing outside the ladies bathroom, waiting. How do you think she would feel?
are you trying to describe stalking?

ive known some guys to look at a girl they like in a club but dont have the guts to go up to them while they are in their group of girl friends. so they wait for them to go to the bar or wherever away from most of the friends so its easier to approach her.

to you, this poor guy looks like you have just described, an evil pouncing predatory cat. to him, hes drunk trying to meet a girl..

you carry on as if women do nothing wrong ever. or people cannot be mistaken.

some people like attention too, just as others dislike it
 

access

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For what I've see in the world, its a little deeper than that... its, 'if some man I don't find cute or handsome dares look at me'... They have no problem with their subjective preferred 'mates' looking, those gets smiles and eye flutters etc in return, its those they aren't attracted to that they don't want looking and have a problem with... those are the 'pigs'. /shrug
ive actually heard the words from womens mouths.

hes ugly he cant look at me sis make him stop. hes so hot he can look all night long, hope its not only looking.....
 

airborne

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are you trying to describe stalking?

ive known some guys to look at a girl they like in a club but dont have the guts to go up to them while they are in their group of girl friends. so they wait for them to go to the bar or wherever away from most of the friends so its easier to approach her.

to you, this poor guy looks like you have just described, an evil pouncing predatory cat. to him, hes drunk trying to meet a girl..

you carry on as if women do nothing wrong ever. or people cannot be mistaken.

some people like attention too, just as others dislike it
No fsks, she's describing a creepy dude, not the friendly nice looking guy that's been catching her eye every so often, rather it's the guy that probably avoids much eye contact because his eyes are so busy elsewhere, a little bit menacing, weird, disconcerting.
 

access

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No fsks, she's describing a creepy dude, not the friendly nice looking guy that's been catching her eye every so often, rather it's the guy that probably avoids much eye contact because his eyes are so busy elsewhere, a little bit menacing, weird, disconcerting.
so a guy with poor social skills? or doesnt go out much, as in not used to seeing scantily clad ladies? :D

yes yes there are creeps, i assume there always will be..


what happens, is not as important as how you react to what happens.
 

Zoomzoom

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For eons animals have given zero cares about what other animals think; if there's a mate they're attracted to, they start strutting and bashing skulls and pigeons - those horny birds, they just start humping wherever. Are animals sexually harassing each other? Probably not, but if we all of a sudden imbued a pigeon community with consciousness and the birds erected sudden rules as to what constitutes proper behavior, I'd imagine those male birds with their hardwired predispositions to be stupid horny male pigeons would take very long to change their behavior.

A lot of the difficulty we have as humans is in trying to reconcile our animal brains with modernity and the conscious modulation of behavior it requires. And part of that process involves giving less ****s about behavior that really isn't harmful. If some dude swerves in front of me and calls me a wanker, I could probably class that as abusive behavior or alternatively, I could just ignore them and get on with my day and have some compassion for them and do the work of trying to change the behavior of road-rage idiots elsewhere, in ways that don't also make me look like an angry person.

Obviously our evolving animal brains don't justify any behavior, but I think we need to distinguish between someone being a douche, and someone really trying to harm us. The douchebag driver is a different animal to the person trying to force their way into my house and I can regard them as distinct, instead of lumping all behavior that rubs me the wrong way into a single class of behavior. Without those distinctions I'd devote far too much anger and effort in trying to change the behavior of petty short-tempered drivers than trying to change the behavior of the really harmful home invaders.

Tangentially...yeah - guys have a responsibility to not be creeps.
Of course I'm not lumping all the behaviour in the same basket. However in trying to get some of these commentators to even acknowledge that it might sometimes be necessary to actually acknowledge how someone else feels I've gotten trapped into describing just one set of behaviour.

The bottom line is that how I choose to react is one thing, but I'm not the only one with a responsibility in the situation. The person committing the offense has a responsibility to acknowledge their behaviour and change it. The person (or people) I ask for help have a responsibility to at very least believe what I'm saying and hopefully offer some help like decent human beings.

And I don't agree with letting minor offenses slide, the time to stop worse things happening is when they are minor things.


No, she does not have to "change". The point is that not ALL gazes are predatory. Majority of them are completely benign and if the alarm is triggering for more than just a few... then perhaps the alarm is set a little to sensitively.

This is where the reality bit comes in. It doesn't care how you feel. If your path has crossed that of a predator, there is not a single right or law that is going to save you.
Is it illegal to stare at a woman for more than 2 microseconds? Yes? Does the predator care? No.

See my point here?

She has to accept that not all men are predators. That undressing her with their eyeballs is not a thing the majority of men do.
Please do not believe the garbage the men who disagree with me are saying. At no point have I ever said every single man on the planet is a predator. All I'm saying is that there is behaviour that is wrong, and that it causes a varying degree of distress in its victims and more importantly it is the responsibility of the men doing it to change, to evolve, to stop being absolute pigs. It is not my job as victim of a single act, to be further victimised by having to move, change how I act or dress, lose out on something I'm doing, etc etc etc because someone never learned how to act properly around other human beings.

so a guy with poor social skills? or doesnt go out much, as in not used to seeing scantily clad ladies? :D

yes yes there are creeps, i assume there always will be..


what happens, is not as important as how you react to what happens.
No what happens is also important. Again all responsibility is being placed on the victim as to what they do, how they react. How is that fair or right?

Let's try this - a person walks up to you in the street and hits you - absolutely no reason for it whatsoever. Total stranger - just hits you. Now do they have ANY agency in their behaviour? Or is it all your fault? How you walked? How you looked? What you were wearing? Now is it entirely your responsibility as what happens next? Now please don't suggest hitting him back - violence in return for violence is not acceptable here. Oh and you can't ask him to f0cking well stop either. Your only options are change what you are doing, or walk away passively. Oh and please do not cry afterwards, because not only are you not allowed to do anything, you aren't allowed to say anything about it either. Don't dare suggest that this behaviour was unacceptable and should stop.

Now lets extrapolate this into everyday scenarios women encounter. Every time you go out someone hits you. Sometimes there are a group of them doing it together. Sometimes this happens in the grocery store. Sometimes you work with this f-cker. Every single day you go to work there is this one moron who thinks it is OK to hit you. Sometimes it just a light slap, doesn't hurt much, maybe you should just ignore it. Sometimes it is harder, and harder to ignore. Sometimes it is so light you aren't even sure it happened, but then that light slap happens over and over and over and over until you realise you have been accepting something really unacceptable for a long time and now WTF can you do about it?


And if you dare try to say - please stop hitting me - I do not deserve it simply because I exist - the people who do not see anything at all wrong with the slapping (and probably aren't even the ones actually doing it) dogpile on anyone who speaks out and tries to change the behaviour because OMG what are you a BABY that you can't handle a few slaps, and after all people have a RIGHT to slap someone else if they feel like it, because no harm done right? And after all it isn't up to them to change, you must just learn how to stand up for yourself. Wait no, not like that. Or like that. Or like that. Oh wait - just shut up and go back to allowing yourself to be slapped.
 
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cerebus

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Between consenting partners, there are ebbs and flows to libido. We're not always in sync with our partners and sometimes it's more intimate than any movie has ever portrayed, or just a good old rogering because desire needs to be satisfied.
Sometimes, enthusiasm is one sided and it's ok because it's still consent.

Enthusiasm is a terrible measure of consent.
In a relationship you learn what's okay and what isn't. You develop the boundaries of consent naturally. Enthusiasm just means your partner is actually happy to go along with you and doesn't feel violated. In a casual hookup it's different in the sense that you need to establish clearly that you aren't coercing the other person.

In the case of Louis CK it's very simple - he shouldn't have felt he had the right in the first place to bluntly ask if he could jerk off in front of women he was working with, it was an entirely inappropriate request. And in some cases he never even asked, in other cases he physically prevented women from leaving after he began, and he went after the careers of women who tried to speak up about him.

Here's what it looks like when there's consent, as there was with Sarah Silverman:

It’s not analogous to the other women that are talking about what he did to them. He could offer me nothing. We were only just friends. So sometimes, yeah, I wanted to see it, it was amazing. Sometimes I would say, ‘****ing no, gross,’ and we got pizza.
 

KT-B

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Fair enough. But I wouldn't call what you're talking about "male gaze".
I never called it that either - I never even agreed that such a thing existed. People look at each other - that is perfectly normal. I am talking about the staring that is not perfectly normal. But I have mentioned that many times now. Let's move on now :)

We have established that men look at pretty women and that is ok. Women look at men and that is ok too. You now know that some guys stare for prolonged times and that will make some women uncomfortable. We have also established that it is not always malicious. We have also established that if it is - she is in deep trouble anyway and not much is going to help her.
 

KT-B

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No, she does not have to "change". The point is that not ALL gazes are predatory. Majority of them are completely benign and if the alarm is triggering for more than just a few... then perhaps the alarm is set a little to sensitively.

This is where the reality bit comes in. It doesn't care how you feel. If your path has crossed that of a predator, there is not a single right or law that is going to save you.
Is it illegal to stare at a woman for more than 2 microseconds? Yes? Does the predator care? No.

See my point here?

She has to accept that not all men are predators. That undressing her with their eyeballs is not a thing the majority of men do.
I agree with you 100%. My point was to illustrate that some women do feel uncomfortable - and this awareness should help some guys not come across as creepy if they are trying to get a woman's attention.

As for the undressing with the eyeballs thing - I have only heard about it - never observed it. So I am inclined to believe it is a Hollywood created thing.
 

KT-B

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Not at all... my point was clear, you have to be very opinionated about yourself if you're assuming everytime a man looks at you, he's undressing you in his mind and wants sexy sexy time... that, or you're a mind reader ;)
I suppose the girls who feel this have had experience. But yes - I agree that not every guy would do it. Most guys just want a smile in return. A conversation. But I also know that guys do not stare at ugly or overweight girls - thinking the thoughts you said they do. Most guys are decent and would just look away or find a prettier one to look at.
 

KT-B

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Ag, you know what KT, I actually don't know who the fcck you're going to get to make creepy men stop looking at attractive women. I guess it'll have to be the police. I really don't know what the appropriate sentence should be either, the courts can consult you and zoomzoom. Until then if I see a beautiful woman - I'm going to look at her. If I see a nice ass - I'm going to look, especially if it's in a mini skirt or tight pair of jeans. If I see a nice pair of tits - ima lookin, especially if they're in one of those tiny t's. If I see a sexy woman on a dance floor I'm watching her, because if it's on public display that's my right. I might even wonder what she looks like naked, or think about fccking her, because there is nothing you can do to stop me thinking what I think. Men are stimulated visually and that's never going to change. I'm not willing to play pretend that women don't feel attractive and sexy when how they look is appealing to the male gaze. I don't accept that women can get to feel attractive and sexy while demanding that the eyes that attractiveness is designed for by nature avert themselves. Until you can criminalise me for being male, wear a hijab or grow the fcck up, because I'm sick of dealing with emotional toddlers who think I must subjugate who and what I am for their feelings.

It's a little power trip you guys are on. Teenage girl shyt. "I'm going to show off what I've got because I like the way it feels, but if some man dares look, I'm going to cry and play the victim, because some guys are rapists".
I love your posts because you really only read what you want to - and miss what I am actually saying. You keep looking at pretty ladies - I am not trying to stop you. You have missed my point entirely but I am not going to go through it again.

I have no problem with guys looking at girls. It is perfectly natural.
 

KT-B

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For what I've see in the world, its a little deeper than that... its, 'if some man I don't find cute or handsome dares look at me'... They have no problem with their subjective preferred 'mates' looking, those gets smiles and eye flutters etc in return, its those they aren't attracted to that they don't want looking and have a problem with... those are the 'pigs'. /shrug
The same applies to guys. They look at the sexy, pretty ones. Those that are plain and overweight are ignored. This is nature.
 

KT-B

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are you trying to describe stalking?

ive known some guys to look at a girl they like in a club but dont have the guts to go up to them while they are in their group of girl friends. so they wait for them to go to the bar or wherever away from most of the friends so its easier to approach her.

to you, this poor guy looks like you have just described, an evil pouncing predatory cat. to him, hes drunk trying to meet a girl..

you carry on as if women do nothing wrong ever. or people cannot be mistaken.

some people like attention too, just as others dislike it
You too are only jumping in at the last minute and have missed the point of what I was trying to illustrate. One of the guys said he never felt threatened - I was showing that girls have been conditioned to find certain behaviour threatening. We then even had a post which was the most likely scenario - which was even less intrusive than yours. If you want to follow a girl around in a club - you need to understand how she might view it lol. I know that most guys are not predators. Many guys are shy and their behaviour can come across as strange. You need to know that girls have been brought up to be cautious. If you know this - you will be so much more successful when picking up girls.
 
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