Time to invest in a illegal gun?

[Leitmotif]

You have the same thing with guns, most people who own gun don't place a LOADED GUN right next their beds [or do they] ?

Exactly - you don't know, do you? Here's a question, what's the point of keeping an unloaded gun readied? Even so, a pistol mag is quick to load.

Heck even in a car, who drives with a loaded gun in such a position that they can actually use it in a hijacking?

You seem to be assuming that loaded guns aren't safe to carry or keep around. How amusing. My gun model's testing involved dropping it cocked and loaded from a building onto a concrete slab. Didn't go off. Guns are safe unless mishandled. They do not go off on their own.

My parents own a gun, it's locked up in a safe..its USELESS there.....[and they know it] , which makes it pointless to own one for "defense" ...

You realise it doesn't *have* to be in the safe, right?

This issue gets worse when we're talking about rifles [shotguns/ak47s] , can't walk around with those either. So same argument applies here.

I don't want an ak. Which is just as well since the SAP will never give me a license for one. Shotguns are perfect for home defense, not carrying around. Handguns are effective for defense anywhere.

Incidentally, shotguns aren't rifles.

THe only "safe" time a gun actually works is if you catch the criminal by surprise [as in saw him coming/him not seeing you]. All other times you are most probably gonna get shot or you will shot the wrong person....and from this position a bow is as good as any other item...

As for the stunguns, yea always a counter there, but again all this stuff only works as a surprise element. The normal taser/stungun [the one which you have to press against someone] also only works as a surprise element and in most cases just the sight of it/sound of it is used to keep someone with a knife away [or at least delay an attack] .

There is no 'safe' situation where you'd want to use a gun. By definition if you've resorted to your gun then you or others are in imminent danger. Surprise is pulling out a nice lethal reminder that humans are tool-users.

So, the sight or sound of a nonlethal taser can keep criminals away but the sight of a gun won't? Can't rape an armed woman, can't tell which are armed... even the thought of a gun would make a potential criminal think twice.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

And the SAPS are policy makers since........

Get a life Koos. The top brass in the SAPS are politicians - nothing more.

If I had a life why would I be hanging around here?

Qualify your statement. If you meant to say that the DFOs didn't make the law, sure, I agree. Most of them are really nice people struggling to implement the law, it's as onerous for them as for us.

The "top brass", as you call it, are under orders from the ANC. We know this. The people I'm talking about are Pikkie van Vuuren, Jaco Bothma, Jacques van / de (I can never remember) Lille, and the like. Far from "top brass", but told to do a job and doing it. Which is fair and well, it is, after all, a job.

But these people have been involved in drafting the law, and they are SAPS, and they are also the people claiming that they are only there to implement the law.

Two faced swine.

(If you can't tell yet, we don't like them much

koos

 

[jontyB]

Koos: agreed on your point.

For the record, Pikkie Janse van Vuuren is not very well liked by most police. Off the record many of us think he is also involved with Selebi in some way or another. I also believe Jaco Bothma is not exactly unbiased, considering he's the director of the Central Firearms Register.

 

[diabolus]

Exactly - you don't know, do you? Here's a question, what's the point of keeping an unloaded gun readied? Even so, a pistol mag is quick to load.

You seem to be assuming that loaded guns aren't safe to carry or keep around. How amusing. My gun model's testing involved dropping it cocked and loaded from a building onto a concrete slab. Didn't go off. Guns are safe unless mishandled. They do not go off on their own.

Point i was trying to make [which you obviously missed] , most women or your average joe don't walk around with a gun strapped to their hip or in their purse [whether it is safe or not], nor do they sleep with one under their pillow [whether it is a legal gun or not] . It's just not practical in alot of cases [i.e. children who might open the wrong drawer? , or it not actually be very comfortable to carry etc].

Now based on that, alot of gun owners might not actually have their gun in any position to serve as "Defense" in the case of an attack..for exactly the reasons above.

As for mishandling, issue is more of someone pulling a gun out of their purse in "self-defense" where the attacker did not have a gun [or might have had no interest in using one]......you complete the picture [and include the psychology required for a woman/non-military-trained person to shoot someone point-blank]

I personally don't think we're down there yet where people have to carry a weapon 24-7.

 

[Getafix]

I personally don't think we're down there yet where people have to carry a weapon 24-7.

That is your thoughts. You are entitled to it. Do as you wish.

But please don't tell me what I should do.

If I want to carry, use, play, threaten, kill, save or whatever with a gun, it is my choice and I must take the consequences.

I am all for responsible gun ownership.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

Point i was trying to make [which you obviously missed] , most women or your average joe don't walk around with a gun strapped to their hip or in their purse

True.

But the important point which you should not miss is the fact that if a few good people carry firearms, the criminals won't know who is armed and who isn't.

The result is that the people *not* carrying are also safer.

This has been proved in the states, where it's easier to make valid comparisons (the different states are much more similar than the UK is to Japan or whatever).

[i.e. children who might open the wrong drawer?

Children are actually quite easy to gun-proof. Go read up on "boy's rifle" -- a single shot .22 given to kids at an early age, years ago when society was more sane.

Now based on that, alot of gun owners might not actually have their gun in any position to serve as "Defense" in the case of an attack..for exactly the reasons above.

Still no reason why they should not have a gun.

I personally don't think we're down there yet where people have to carry a weapon 24-7.

And other people believe we are. The whole issue of police people taking their firearms home have hit the press a few times. They obviously feel that they need to be armed 24/7.

I fortunately live in a fairly "quiet" part of the country so I don't carry much. But each person's responsible for his / her own safety...

Koos

 

[Leitmotif]

Now based on that, alot of gun owners might not actually have their gun in any position to serve as "Defense" in the case of an attack..for exactly the reasons above.

What you've missed is that not carrying 24/7 doesn't mean the gun is worthless. Also, I *will* be carrying 24/7, regardless of comfort or whatever else.

I personally don't think we're down there yet where people have to carry a weapon 24-7.

You probably didn't experience two major shootouts down the block from two places of work in the last year. I did, and I'll feel better with a firearm.

If I want to carry, use, play, threaten, kill, save or whatever with a gun, it is my choice and I must take the consequences.

Absolutely true. Responsibility and understanding of consequences make us safer, not blanket banning.

Children are actually quite easy to gun-proof. Go read up on "boy's rifle" -- a single shot .22 given to kids at an early age, years ago when society was more sane.

There was a guy who brought his kids to the range while I was there. He wanted to let them shoot a .22 pistol... a little boy of about 7, girl of about 8. No problems, no issues, no injuries because they were taught about gun safety. If you have kids it's part of your responsibility.

 

[diabolus]

Still no reason why they should not have a gun.

I'm not actually pro or anti gun "owner", or rather not strongly against or for either as i know in SA there's alot of instances i would also want a gun [i.e. if a lived on farm or in a remote area..i would get a gun period] .

My parents owns a gun, i don't tell them not to own one.

Issue for me is the "effectiveness" of owning a gun in a suburban area. Whether owning a gun actually PREVENTS the crime or actually are useful in PROTECTING oneself [considering all the practical issues] ...

Also whether criminals will be less likely to rob your car/house if they "thought" you might have a gun. [comparisons to the USA stats isn't really applicable, SA is in a much worse state in terms of the desperateness of criminals [most of them have nothing to loose] ]

In SA a criminal will probably still rob you whether you might have a gun or not..in fact he'll probably shoot you faster if he thought you might have one.

What you've missed is that not carrying 24/7 doesn't mean the gun is worthless. Also, I *will* be carrying 24/7, regardless of comfort or whatever else

Actually i was trying to say the ONLY way carrying/owning a gun is useful, is to carry it 24/7 with the intention of using it at the drop of a hat. Which is not always practical and requires quite a special type of mentality....[military type of mentality]. For this you need alot of special training [i figure] not only gun usage but being alert enough to pull that gun out in a second ready to shoot....if i get hijacked/robbed/assaulted then i might get into that kind of mindset, but unfortunately at this stage its not a way i want to live...

 

[Natas]

CHildren need to be taught about gun safety....my mom had a gun and has had one for many years...since I was young. I always knew exaclty where she put it and where she kept it. Many times she would tell me to fetch somehting in her draw and her gun would be right there....I vern EVER messed with it because I was taught that a gun is NOT a toy and was taught how to handle a gun...also my mom taught me....

You never point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them (even an empty gun)
You never shoot someone unless you intend to kill them.

Kids need to learn that guns are not toys...if they learn that..no problem..if they dont listen and kill themselves, well then there is no need for their parents to give htem a hiding...they pretty much gave themselves one

 

[Leitmotif]

Also whether criminals will be less likely to rob your car/house if they "thought" you might have a gun. [comparisons to the USA stats isn't really applicable, SA is in a much worse state in terms of the desperateness of criminals [most of them have nothing to loose] ]

In SA a criminal will probably still rob you whether you might have a gun or not..in fact he'll probably shoot you faster if he thought you might have one.

Can't tell who carries... that's the whole point of concealed carry. Criminals might indeed go after your guns if they think that can get the drop on you. The counter is to always be aware, even in your own house. Training makes up for surprise. Properly trained people can draw and shoot before the criminal has properly assessed the situation.

Actually i was trying to say the ONLY way carrying/owning a gun is useful, is to carry it 24/7 with the intention of using it at the drop of a hat. Which is not always practical and requires quite a special type of mentality....[military type of mentality]. For this you need alot of special training [i figure] not only gun usage but being alert enough to pull that gun out in a second ready to shoot....if i get hijacked/robbed/assaulted then i might get into that kind of mindset, but unfortunately at this stage its not a way i want to live...

It's a 'warrior' mindset. I can live with that, cheesy as it sounds in this day and age. Self-defense training doesn't just mean learning to kick people's kneecaps out through their throats or whatever. It's a skillset including alertness, muscle memory and assessment - it's important to know when to draw and/or when to shoot.

If you're being hijacked or robbed it's already too late. What about when you come home and someone is raping your wife of daughter? Or if someone has your parents tied up? Will you recognise the danger signs in time to seek help? Will it be in time to save them? Or would you be their best chance?

 

[Natas]

i have decided taht I definately need a gun. I wouldnt take it everywhere with me, maybe on long trips by car and stuff. I defintely would like to have a gun at home tho' I would much rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.

I have loads of other weapons ( I collect them) but i think I need a gun now. I will not have people come into my home and attack me and my family without a serious fight. I wouldn't mind a 9mm, a cool shot gun, a sniper rifle and an M16..appaerntly to get all those I would have to get a collectors license, which is hard to get

 

[Koos Custodiet]

It's a 'warrior' mindset. I can live with that, cheesy as it sounds in this day and age.

Jeff Cooper came up with the colour code. White being completely unaware of your situation.

if you walk around in condition white, you are potential food. Tourists are good at condition white, which is why they're soft targets.

You don't need a gun to be in yellow, orange or red. But you should never be in white while carrying a gun. With the right training, that basically means that you're potentially more alert when carrying, which means that you're less likely to be a target (criminals notice you noticing / not noticing them).

It's a way of life, the warrior mindset, and it's unrelated to whether you have a gun or not.

Koos

 

[Koos Custodiet]

i have decided taht I definately need a gun.

Good. Get your competency ASAP. That's the first thing, 'cos it starts the clock. You can decide on the type of firearm later.

I wouldn't mind a 9mm, a cool shot gun, a sniper rifle

*coff*

Define "sniper rifle"... you mean an accurate gun? A standard Remington bolt is way accurate. Or do you mean a Barrett 50 BMG? Those get expensive to shoot and are not that useful [1].

If you're looking for accurate, look at what the benchresters are doing.

and an M16..appaerntly to get all those I would have to get a collectors license, which is hard to get

True, for an M16 you will need to be either a collector or have some other very good reason / justification.

It's not hard to get a "collectors licence" (actually, you become a member of a collectors association, and get an affidavit from them, and that gets noted on your SAPS competence -- there's no "licence"). It's just a lot of hard work (you have to show that you're a dedicated collector and not just someone pretending to be a collector so that they can get a cool shotgun and an M16).

Koos

[1] Not that I don't want one. I'd love a Barrett

 

[Leitmotif]

Jeff Cooper came up with the colour code.
...
It's a way of life, the warrior mindset, and it's unrelated to whether you have a gun or not.

This I know... but like you said, you should never be in white while carrying. It's much more important when armed. Being aware of and consciously in that thought mode helps maintain vigilance though.

I would much rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.

Crux of the matter.

I wouldn't mind a 9mm, a cool shot gun, a sniper rifle and an M16..appaerntly to get all those I would have to get a collectors license, which is hard to get

I'd imagine that the M16 is the only one you'd need a collector's cert for. Don't know how you're going to define your field of interest, though. Could always go with an AR-15 semiauto instead.

How would you define a 'cool' shotgun? I think the Serbu Super Shorty is cool, but you might like a Benelli M4 or a Mossberg Cruiser...

'Sniper rifle' is a term to watch out for. It's particularly used by pro-banners to describe hunting weapons or benchrest target rifles. Sounds evil, you see, like 'saturday night special' or 'cop-killer bullets' or 'street-sweeper'. Pretty much any good scoped bolt-action classifies, unless you want a military style rifle.

A 9mm would be your standard self-defense carry gun. Shotgun is a perfect home defense weapon. Sniper rifle is a target or hunting gun. Have fun justifying an M16 to the CFR, though...

 

[RichardP]

I would much rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.

Would you rather have your OWN gun to your head? .. If your gun is stolen, and the thief kills a kid with it - will that make it feel better? And now there is going to be the "People kill, not guns" drivel. heard that one too many times before.

The *NEED* for guns is created by Man.

 

[Natas]

@ Koos...I meant one of those 50 cals..that would be sweat....and thanks for the heads up on joining a collector's club. How cool would it be if some punk tries to break into your house armed with a knife and you stick uit with an M16?!?!?!!??!

 

[Leitmotif]

Would you rather have your OWN gun to your head? .. If your gun is stolen, and the thief kills a kid with it - will that make it feel better? And now there is going to be the "People kill, not guns" drivel. heard that one too many times before.

The *NEED* for guns is created by Man.

So take the guns from the cops... they get stolen far more than civilians'. As for having your own gun to your head... amazing how these gun control urban legends perpetuate.

You've heard it because it's true. People kill with knives, screwdrivers, bits of pipe, plumber's tools... wanna ban those too?

 

[RichardP]

So take the guns from the cops... they get stolen far more than civilians'. As for having your own gun to your head... amazing how these gun control urban legends perpetuate.

You've heard it because it's true. People kill with knives, screwdrivers, bits of pipe, plumber's tools... wanna ban those too?

Its the Intended use of the item ... A paperclip can kill, but its designed for holding paper. Pipes have a primary use of something else. Knives have a primary use of cutting items. Cars have a primary use of transporting people. Guns have a primary use to kill and are DESIGNED to kill

 

[Koos Custodiet]

How cool would it be if some punk tries to break into your house armed with a knife and you stick uit with an M16?!?!?!!??!

I figured this one out for myself, but later found out that Jeff Cooper said it before I did [1]. If I could choose the criminal's firearm, I'd prefer they shoot at me with a full-auto firearm.

Why?

'cos if the first shot hits, I'm SOL anyway. And with a fully-auto, if the first shot misses, the rest are all misses too. (OK, OK, I know that one can learn to control a full-auto, but we're talking about criminals, they don't spend time (and more importantly, ammo) training).

Anyway. No, not really cool. A handgun's a better choice. IMO of course.

Koos

[1] Go read the Wiki on Jeff Cooper. All of ya. Thanks.

 

[Natas]

Would you rather have your OWN gun to your head? .. If your gun is stolen, and the thief kills a kid with it - will that make it feel better? And now there is going to be the "People kill, not guns" drivel. heard that one too many times before.

The *NEED* for guns is created by Man.

we live in an evil world where there are lots of people who would kill you for your shoes.

Have my own gun to my head....whats the difference..my gun..his gun..his knife to my throat. I would gladly have my own gun to my head if just before that I tried to shoot the b@stard but he managed to get it away from me. If you're going to die, you're going to die, what matters is what you tried to do to protect your family just before you get shot in the head.

Independant of the people kill people argument, there is no logical way that I can be imputed with any guilt (legal and/or emotional) as a result of a chain of events where I bought a gun, that gun was stolen and the theif used it to kill a child. the thief could come back and tell me he used my gun to kill thirty children and I wouldnt bat an eyelid. Did I kill them...no! how can you possibly think that because you bought a gun and that gun got stollen and used to kill someone that the victims death is somehow your fault.

Yes in an ideal world we would all be hippies with flowers and not guns in our hand, but thats not the world we live and everyday the world grows further and further away from that ideal. Things will get much worse before they get better, and its in those times when things get worse, that my guns will stand me in better stead than your flowers you.